DUST Search - [Rant] Vehicle Armor Composition Skill (or Why Does CCP Hate Shields...

Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

I wish shields in Dust were like shields in EVE.

Roughly similar HP values and Shields have a natural, albeit slow, constant reps. I always had it in my mind that the Caldari and Gallente would have the same HP values as one another but instead inversed.

E.G- 1200 Shields 3200 Armour (yes new stats oh boy) vs 3200 Shields and 1200 Armour

Only real difference is that each racial groups shields and armour resistances vary depending on which racial group they oppose.

E.G- The Retribution as an 87.5% Armour Resistances against explosive damage, whereas the Wolf has 90% Resistance on its shields against EM damage.

Don't forget that shields Space-Side recharge constantly, even under fire; additionally, they recharge on a total time (with the recharge rate being effected by a curve, the higher the shields, the slower the recharge, the lower the shields the faster...until you get below about 25%). The affect of having them recharge on a time is that adding buffer (or more raw HP value) also increases the recharge rate (leaving the recharge time unaffected). Another point of contention is the lack of infantry remote shield transporters...which leads to an inherent disparity between the two (especially considering that Amor, both dust and space-side get more raw HP)

" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III

Pages: 1 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1652	Posted - 2014.06.21 18:29:00 - [1] - Quote I'm sure some of you may have noticed the new vehicle armor skill: Vehicle Armor Composition (-10% mobility penalty of plates per level). Since it's first appearance after Hotfix Alfa, it was unattainable to purchase the skill book, but now it is available. This is ridiculous against shield vehicleers! Now armor tanker have tank (innate to armor), gank (because damage mods are highs), and now even more so speed (this skill PLUS nitrous being in highs as well)! What do shields have? -Subpar HP extenders (granted given the nature of shields) -Almost useless hardeners -Actually useless boosters that don't work most the time -Shield regeneration that can't be used in fights like armor repairs and that can easily be matched armor -Shield depletion skill that hardly helps shield tanks (because once your shields are gone you're either dead or won and don't have to worry about regen time), and actually help armor tanks MORE because they get their shield buffer back faster. -Weak to EVERY AV and vehicle turret bar missiles. There need to be a few changes to help shield vehicles: -Change the damage profile of vehicle rail turrets to their proper form: +armor -shields (I don't know the exact numbers) Shields are weak as is and armor have virtually no counters except missiles (which I think need work, but that's another thread). This change might also help dropship dogfights against Incubi (since there's almost no way to kill them from the air). -Add a new shield skill: Tactical Shield Manipulation (or whatever you want to call it): +3% to shield resistance per level (x5, requires lvl5 Shield Operation) This will give dedicated shield tankers the boost they need to compare against armor tanks. Some numbers (level 5): Madrugar base shields: 1200 > 1411 Not much of a benefit, thankfully. Gunnlogi (base): 2650 > 3117 Much better, and still not better than Madrugar stats Gunnlogi (2x Cplx Heavy Extenders): 5300 > 6235 Python (base): 1560 > 1835 Python (popular fit): 3000/3200 > 3530/3765 Shield booster (light/heavy): 900/1950 > 1058/2294 Hardener (w/ penalty) 40% > 52.93% As you can see, the benefit isn't game breaking, but it is good enough to give Shield vehicles an edge. It's a useful skill that helps every shield mod and shield mechanic while granting limited help toward armor vehicles/mods. Not to mention it take about as much SP as a Proto suit to skill into. Please CCP, help out shield vehicles. Thanks for reading.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10380	Posted - 2014.06.21 19:01:00 - [2] - Quote Actually armor is weak to Forge, AV Grenades and Swarms, shields are weak to the PLC. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1652	Posted - 2014.06.21 19:05:00 - [3] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Actually armor is weak to Forge, AV Grenades and Swarms, shields are weak to the PLC. That point about changing rail damage profile was just an add-on and mostly just me wanting continuity. The real request is the new skill, which I'd like some feed back on.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1366	Posted - 2014.06.21 19:41:00 - [4] - Quote That, or make the depleted delay skill change to a recharge rate skill. Although an innate resistance skill would be very interesting. And yes, give rails their proper damage profile. Not that it'll help them out much. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1905	Posted - 2014.06.21 21:00:00 - [5] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Actually armor is weak to Forge, AV Grenades and Swarms, shields are weak to the PLC. Well I'd say that shields are weaker to those than armor due to regeneration. While reps constantly replenish armor which allows that vehicle to actually tank small amounts of DPS, shield regeneration is halted and any amount of DPS forces the shield vehicle to retreat, otherwise it will just keep losing shield until it gets destroyed. I'm interested to see how it'd turn out if the normal recharge delay is removed while the depleted delay is increased. Constant regeneration makes sense with a small HP ceiling, so regeneration should be a shield vehicle's best way of dealing with damage, while armor should rely on massive EHP to deal with damage. With a small HP ceiling, high alpha strikes would be the best way of dealing with shield while they regen continuously until depletion, and that should be something a shield vehicle should fear, not the slightest amount of DPS that can eat away at the shield while armor reps can soak it up. "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32 -- "Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1367	Posted - 2014.06.21 21:55:00 - [6] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Actually armor is weak to Forge, AV Grenades and Swarms, shields are weak to the PLC. Well I'd say that shields are weaker to those than armor due to regeneration. While reps constantly replenish armor which allows that vehicle to actually tank small amounts of DPS, shield regeneration is halted and any amount of DPS forces the shield vehicle to retreat, otherwise it will just keep losing shield until it gets destroyed. I'm interested to see how it'd turn out if the normal recharge delay is removed while the depleted delay is increased. Constant regeneration makes sense with a small HP ceiling, so regeneration should be a shield vehicle's best way of dealing with damage, while armor should rely on massive EHP to deal with damage. With a small HP ceiling, high alpha strikes would be the best way of dealing with shield while they regen continuously until depletion, and that should be something a shield vehicle should fear, not the slightest amount of DPS that can eat away at the shield while armor reps can soak it up. Been asking for this for awhile. Armor has more reps, constant reps, and more base HP. What reason is there to use shield? Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 10948	Posted - 2014.06.21 22:13:00 - [7] - Quote I wish shields in Dust were like shields in EVE. Roughly similar HP values and Shields have a natural, albeit slow, constant reps. I always had it in my mind that the Caldari and Gallente would have the same HP values as one another but instead inversed. E.G- 1200 Shields 3200 Armour (yes new stats oh boy) vs 3200 Shields and 1200 Armour Only real difference is that each racial groups shields and armour resistances vary depending on which racial group they oppose. E.G- The Retribution as an 87.5% Armour Resistances against explosive damage, whereas the Wolf has 90% Resistance on its shields against EM damage. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1658	Posted - 2014.06.24 23:50:00 - [8] - Quote Bump
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 37	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:26:00 - [9] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I wish shields in Dust were like shields in EVE. Roughly similar HP values and Shields have a natural, albeit slow, constant reps. I always had it in my mind that the Caldari and Gallente would have the same HP values as one another but instead inversed. E.G- 1200 Shields 3200 Armour (yes new stats oh boy) vs 3200 Shields and 1200 Armour Only real difference is that each racial groups shields and armour resistances vary depending on which racial group they oppose. E.G- The Retribution as an 87.5% Armour Resistances against explosive damage, whereas the Wolf has 90% Resistance on its shields against EM damage. Don't forget that shields Space-Side recharge constantly, even under fire; additionally, they recharge on a total time (with the recharge rate being effected by a curve, the higher the shields, the slower the recharge, the lower the shields the faster...until you get below about 25%). The affect of having them recharge on a time is that adding buffer (or more raw HP value) also increases the recharge rate (leaving the recharge time unaffected). Another point of contention is the lack of infantry remote shield transporters...which leads to an inherent disparity between the two (especially considering that Amor, both dust and space-side get more raw HP)
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11143	Posted - 2014.06.25 03:03:00 - [10] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: True Adamance wrote: I wish shields in Dust were like shields in EVE. Roughly similar HP values and Shields have a natural, albeit slow, constant reps. I always had it in my mind that the Caldari and Gallente would have the same HP values as one another but instead inversed. E.G- 1200 Shields 3200 Armour (yes new stats oh boy) vs 3200 Shields and 1200 Armour Only real difference is that each racial groups shields and armour resistances vary depending on which racial group they oppose. E.G- The Retribution as an 87.5% Armour Resistances against explosive damage, whereas the Wolf has 90% Resistance on its shields against EM damage. Don't forget that shields Space-Side recharge constantly, even under fire; additionally, they recharge on a total time (with the recharge rate being effected by a curve, the higher the shields, the slower the recharge, the lower the shields the faster...until you get below about 25%). The affect of having them recharge on a time is that adding buffer (or more raw HP value) also increases the recharge rate (leaving the recharge time unaffected). Another point of contention is the lack of infantry remote shield transporters...which leads to an inherent disparity between the two (especially considering that Amor, both dust and space-side get more raw HP) How could I not have mentioned that......? And the Shield Transporters would make shield tanking much more significant in this game. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III

Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 372	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:48:00 - [11] - Quote forges does more to armor, swarms does more to armor, RE's and PE's does more to armor, rails are supposed to do more to armor (not sure why that still hasn't been fixed), AV nades does more to armor, missiles does more to armor. yet apparently most of them does more to shield. That's amusing. Anyways, that's not really it. As you said, Cal's shields suck. Well, Cal's shields should be slightly higher than Gallente's armor, and then Gallente having more shields than Caldari has armor, with both having the same amount of HP covering both armor and shields. This back up The "Gallente is Faster than Caldari, and active tanks to mitigate damage vs. Caldari being slower and usually having a high buffer to mitigate damage". The Gallente HAV's have been playing like a MIx between Amarr and Gallente, and Caldari HAV's have been playing like a Mix of Caldari and WInmatar, and people keep on talking as if they are, and frankly, they shouldn't be. Just makes it harder to actually balance for WInmatar and Amarr vehicles to come in, as well as (as we have seen time and time again) muck up balance between the hulls that we currently have.
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 11	Posted - 2014.06.25 06:06:00 - [12] - Quote i will vouch that i have been trying out my Gunnlogi char that's on passive and it's really a ***** sometimes tank V tank
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2158	Posted - 2014.06.25 15:28:00 - [13] - Quote First of all (unless they ninja changed it on me) the shield recharge skill for vehicles only reduces the delay for shield depletion, which is completely idiotic since most shield vehicles are dead if their shields are depleted and it actually favors armor vehicles more since their shields are frequently depleted, meaning their buffer comes back faster. That skill should most definitely be changed to Normal Shield Recharge Delay, and not Depleted Shield Recharge Delay. This would make it a skill that actually benefits shield vehicles more than armor vehicles. In addition, a skill should be added that increases the shield recharge rate, especially since we don't have modules which increases this base rate at all. I don't really envision shields repping through fire, I feel that is far more appropriate for armor. Shields on the other hand should have significantly higher regeneration rates, but only after the delay meaning it wont work while under fire. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
MRBH1997 Knights Of Ender Proficiency V. 111	Posted - 2014.06.25 15:58:00 - [14] - Quote What we really need is a reintroduction of all the passive modules we had before 1.7. But we would have to revert the tanks back to their 5/2 2/5 module slots. It would be nice having shield recharges and all this turret modules again. Same with turret variantsand removed active modules. CEO of Knights of Ender Corporation Website: http://koe.shivtr.com Public Channel: Knights of Ender Public
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1658	Posted - 2014.06.25 16:04:00 - [15] - Quote MRBH1997 wrote: What we really need is a reintroduction of all the passive modules we ha before 1.7. But we would have to revert the tanks back to their 5/2 2/5 module slots. It would be nice having shield recharges and all this turret modules again. Same with turret variants. I would like this. Mods like extenders, plates, repairs, boosters, and hardeners should have huge fitting requirements so no more than two or three could be fitted at the same time and passive mods would have lighter fitting requirements but wouldn't be as effective. But to get back to the main topic of this thread, I would really like a response from CCP about why they thought adding the new armor skill was needed (without warning or feedback) and what they plan to do for shield vehicles.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1088	Posted - 2014.06.25 21:53:00 - [16] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: -Add a new shield skill: Tactical Shield Manipulation (or whatever you want to call it): +3% to shield resistance per level (x5, requires lvl5 Shield Operation) That's too hard of a skill bonus. It's one of those "make it or break it" ones. What you say about shield regen skill and functionality is true. In tank vs tank the shields are still at disadvantage because of shields not recharing like armor. What breaks it, is the fact that when shields do finally recharge, the rate is slowish and seems like armor self rep speed at best. :-S


Pages: 1 :: [one page]