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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.19 08:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Just throwing this out there. So we have a problem with high level players creating too powerful, too cheap, vehicle fits using proto modules on militia chassis.
Instead of changing anything about weapons or modules, what would be wrong about just reducing PG/CPU on militia vehicles a bit.
It won't hurt the new players who want to try vehicles like an ISK increase would but makes those interested have to make an SP investment to become dedicated.
Your thoughts?
I am unfamiliar with this issue.
Players are making MLT Tanks too powerful? Through the use of Proto Type Modules on MLT Tanks?
That is not the issue at all.
Its that MLT tanks require little to no ISK, no SP investment, and can effectively negate massive amounts of SP investment into vehicles with MLT grade modules.
This may not be such an Issue no due to your changes but I rarely find that MLT tanks are too powerful for hand held AV to tackle.
The Issue I see with HAV is that players do not have to spend much SP in HAV skills at all to receive massive benefits. Emphasis in HAV command is placed on the hull itself, and now that modules have effectively had their tiering destroyed in favour of quicker cycle times ( the short term benefits of module far outweighing the long term negatives) even a low 1-3 Million SP toon can make themselves and game breaking menace on the battlefield.
Because that Emphasis on power lies in the hull of the vehicle and the turret mounted, AV cannot effectively break down HAV's using their current damage models.
In regards to balancing HAV against hand held AV I have always said needs to lie in changes to the HAV's themselves and or the skills associated with HAV Command.
The easiest way I see how to do it is break down the current HAV's power into most SP sink skills meaning players have to skill into and build up their characters skills in their chosen vehicle role to achieve comparable Power gains.
A Basic Swarm Launcher should be doing effective quantities of damage to MLT hulls which suffer from lesser PG and CPU values due to their lack of skill requirements, like wise they should do damage to STD hulls where the pilots have little to no skill investments. With more investment of SP into Tanking related skills the higher the tier of AV required to eliminate the tank.
Currently much of the issue surrounding HAV power vs ISK cost lies in the lack of competitive modules in our line ups. Intially the meta was Hardeners with 40% (for armour) and 60% (for shield) resistances to damage. These were inevitably nerfed.
Then the meta was Heavy Repair Units, these have now just been nerfed........
There is a trend here. The emphasis and power gains lies in the modules, not the skills associated with the modules, as they do in EVE, and as a result in most cases if I want to have peak ISK efficiency to power output ratios I stack only Standard Modules.
Cheaper PG and CPU, same efficiency, cheaper ISK wise.
Issue is not High tier modules on low tier hulls. You can barely fit a basic module or turret in each slot on a Madrugar, even with then high SP I have invested into fitting skills, its that low tier modules perform essentially the same way if not better than higher tier modules.
"You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength."
-Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.19 08:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Increase the isk cost on proto weapons
No Malleus that is not the way to achieve a balanced out come. All it does in de-incentivise the use of high tiered modules on vehicles in favour of lower tiered ones that fundamentally function in the exact same way with the exact same efficiencies, creating yet another slew and meta of low cost vehicles with high power out puts for little to no SP investment.
"You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength."
-Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.19 20:42:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:Haerr wrote:How about you change the fitting skills instead? A change to them would only hit the high level players and not people trying out vehicles. Yet fitting **** on vehicles is hard enough as it currently is 
I don't know if you are being sarcastic but I have Blaster fitting efficiency to 5, and Small Rails Efficiency to 3.
I can barely fit one basic module in each slot on an HAV.
You cannot say fitting diversity exists when you are not even attempting to fit a module in every slot.
"You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength."
-Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.19 21:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:True Adamance wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Haerr wrote:How about you change the fitting skills instead? A change to them would only hit the high level players and not people trying out vehicles. Yet fitting **** on vehicles is hard enough as it currently is I don't know if you are being sarcastic but I have Blaster fitting efficiency to 5, and Small Rails Efficiency to 3. I can barely fit one basic module in each slot on an HAV. You cannot say fitting diversity exists when you are not even attempting to fit a module in every slot. wat?
Since my Forum Sarcasm detection is at MLT level...... I'll assume you are being earnest and say..... SECONDED!
"You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength."
-Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.19 23:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:THUNDERGROOVE wrote:The issue isn't at all what was outlined in your OP and is quite the opposite as True already said. The problem really lies with the fact there's hardly a difference between a 20 million SP tanker and a 0 SP tanker in terms of tanks competing.
Fitting optimization means nothing when it doesn't effect what you can fit. It just means you'll squeeze another 200 eHP out or maybe 40 more reps. When vehicles were "rebalenced" all that happened is the people who were very very invested in vehicles got screwed over.
Before 1.7 there was this thing called diversity in vehicles. Some of us did ridiculous things like 7K shield Vayus with two Charybdis' following it with remote shield boosters. Why? Because "lol an overpriced armor enforcer tank with seven thousand shields". A player with no SP couldn't do anything like this and cumulatively this was probably 40-50 million SP worth of skills in play just to make it all work. In a good game, we'd absolutely devastate the enemy team with my tanker going 50/0 on a Skirmish and in others, we'd loose millions of ISK to crazy overpowered AV while still at least having fun.
Whenever I get on my dedicated vehicle character, I actually get pretty upset sometimes about the all the changes in 1.7 still. I haven't had as much fun in a vehicle as I did back in the day.
As an addition:
You see similar things in infantry that do you with vehicles. For the longest time, you see people in heavy suits with light weapons. Less so as the HMG is god mode now but it happens none the less. It stems from the "I need to win at least one fight" mentality which is exactly what happens in vehicles. People are fitting militia tanks for the purpose of killing one tank and recalling and everything they did in 1.7 just fed this mentality. Their militia damage modifier works just as well as a complex damage modifier and it's not like they'll need it after they three hit that 450K ISK tank, they're just going to hop out and recall right after. Prettymuch this. 1.7 killed diversity and screwed people who had specced heavily into vehicles as you could get by just fine (and for the most part still do) with 0 SP investments.
Indeed I used to run the following fits post 1.7
Competitive Madrugar
2x Armour Repair Units
1x Armour Hardener
1x Neutron Blaster
1x Scanner
1x Nitrous
Competitive Gunlogi
2x Basic Damage Mod
1x Shield Hardener
2x Armour 120mm Plates
1x Particle Cannon
Both fits cost about 400-500K ISK and require very little SP investment.
Prior to 1.7
1x Compress 80GJ Neutron Blaster
2x Small Missile Launchers
180mm Polycrystalline Armour Plates
1x ADV Armour Hardener
1x Standard Armour Hardener
1x Low Pulse Repair Unit
1x Damage Control Unit
1x Heat Sink
This fit cost be about 1 Million - 1.5 Million ISK per frame......but I had so much more enjoyment fiddling around with the customisability of HAV...infact I used to run a Soma Hull called a LST (Light Scouting Tank) which made use of Nanofibre Hulls, lighter plates for added mobility, a scanner, and a Heat Sink.
Now your options are dead, and fitting outside the standard competitive fits is pointless.
"You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength."
-Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.20 00:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:True Adamance wrote:-snip-
This is exactly what I'm talking about. His pre-1.7 fit was very different to mine. I would run: 180 Poly 2 Carapace hardeners Heavy efficient armor repairer Scattered Neutron blaster For the most part there wasn't a one fit to rule them all like we have now.
I used to have a lot of fun rolling around with a Single nanofibre hull, Scanner, Heat Sink, 120mm Armour plate, and passive resists.
"You are weak Ouryon....weakness serves not the Empire. I shall teach you strength."
-Yurius of the Brutor to Ouryon
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.20 00:31:00 -
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The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just throwing this out there. So we have a problem with high level players creating too powerful, too cheap, vehicle fits using proto modules on militia chassis.
Instead of changing anything about weapons or modules, what would be wrong about just reducing PG/CPU on militia vehicles a bit.
It won't hurt the new players who want to try vehicles like an ISK increase would but makes those interested have to make an SP investment to become dedicated.
Your thoughts?
No, this will only hurt those that ARE trying to fit into ANTI-tank roles. Instead increase CPU-PG requirements of proto modules and increase proto vehicle's CPU-PG baselines. This will induce players to use armor to counter armor, and mid level invested players better by enticing them with mixed proto fittings.
Why when tankers can barely fit a single standard module in each of their slots? That doesn't make sense.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.20 01:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote:True Adamance wrote:The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just throwing this out there. So we have a problem with high level players creating too powerful, too cheap, vehicle fits using proto modules on militia chassis.
Instead of changing anything about weapons or modules, what would be wrong about just reducing PG/CPU on militia vehicles a bit.
It won't hurt the new players who want to try vehicles like an ISK increase would but makes those interested have to make an SP investment to become dedicated.
Your thoughts?
No, this will only hurt those that ARE trying to fit into ANTI-tank roles. Instead increase CPU-PG requirements of proto modules and increase proto vehicle's CPU-PG baselines. This will induce players to use armor to counter armor, and mid level invested players better by enticing them with mixed proto fittings. Why when tankers can barely fit a single standard module in each of their slots? That doesn't make sense. ? sipping and nibbling much..lol by mixed proto, I meant proto tank with mixed modules.
We don't have proto tanks, nor can you fit even basic modules in all slots as I said. Why is it encouraged that players do not all of their slots, or have the capacity to do so, instead focusing less of supporting HAV and more on selfish Pure EHP fits.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.06.20 03:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just throwing this out there. So we have a problem with high level players creating too powerful, too cheap, vehicle fits using proto modules on militia chassis.
Instead of changing anything about weapons or modules, what would be wrong about just reducing PG/CPU on militia vehicles a bit.
It won't hurt the new players who want to try vehicles like an ISK increase would but makes those interested have to make an SP investment to become dedicated.
Your thoughts?
After playing with a proto forge, prof 2, and 3 enhanced damage mods, I SAY STOP. Militia tanks pose NO problem for a lone forge gunner. Those with skills in tanks that choose to cheapen their tanks (a very small decrease between hulls and a single slot decrease) are still easy pickins. So I ask you, please stop nerfing tanks. You have already made the blaster nearly useless on the maddie (via severe armor rep nerf), the rail gun is still king, and the gunnlogi is way up. But all in all, gunnlogis are STILL easy pickings to AV (plasma cannons murder) and the maddie is a joke to my forge gun. SO PLEASE, just stop already. Evaluate what you have done (which mostly isn't positive) before you go nerfing something that is already far beyond where you wanted things to be. Edit: Or I might say that it's just right, as from the AV side, Tanks FEAR AV far more than usual. I heard tale that ADV swarms were being trouble (what bugs did you fix exactly)
I know I do...... I can't shoot back at them any more between dispersion and the awkward HMG aiming reticule.
True Adamance's reasonably good accuracy that used to allow him to snipe stupid snipers or AV at 170+m decreased by 100%
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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True Adamance
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10967
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Posted - 2014.06.22 01:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The problem is not AVers not killing said militia tanks its said militia tanks rendering higher level tanks worthless.
Indeed.
As you say IWS its that the power of the MLT tank is the frame. So for your 0SP you receive massive power gains for little to no investment, couple that with relatively similar fitting capacity as a standard tank, however only having to distribute that fitting capacity over a large turret and 2 High or Low Slot modules effectively nullifies any advantage a higher SP tanker might have.
Its true that this is less prevalent with the changes CCP Rattati has made to Large Turrets and Armour Repairer......however vehicles are still not in place where it feels enjoyable or satisfying to progress through the skill trees.
There are a whole 2 tiers of tank, one tier you don't even have to skill for, and the second lacks a role.
There are 3 turrets, only two of which are most commonly used.
There are less than 5 viable modules in the game that players will use.
No inventive to progress to higher levels of turret.
And not a great deal of skills and modules that make fitting out your tank really customisable and unique.
As I have said back in the only days it felt to me as I skilled through the trees that I was trying to eke out as much efficiency from a fitting by tweaking the meta level of my modules, picking up the Engineering skills, and reducing the CPU or PG of specific modules, all the while skilling into better armour rep efficiency, etc.
Tanking feels dumbed down, tanks don't feel unique and have no incentive to be unique aside from player quirkiness...... AKA my 3 Gun 1 repairer Maddy or my 8000 Armour Maddy, neither of which are incredibly competitive.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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