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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3734
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Posted - 2014.06.18 13:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Rock = Sentinel
Paper = Scout
Scissors = Assault
Scissors are dull right now, which is throwing off the balance a bit. Assault suits are supposed to be the hard counter to Scout suits, but that part needs some adjustment.
Rock vs Paper:
When an HMG Sentinel fights a Scout in a head to head fight the Sentinel is fighting for his life. Scouts die fast if you can hit them, but even standing still a Scout is a small target, and a Scout should never be standing still. When a Scout gets into rage with a Shotgun or Nova Knives and orbits around the Heavy then reverses direction jumping over the stream of HMG bullets, they have the edge over the Sentinel. Even a Scout with an Assault Riffle has an edge in CQC if they play it right.
Of course Scouts try to avoid head to head fights. Like paper they rap around the rock and attack from behind. If they approach from behind the Sentinel will likely be down before they know what happened. Even in Head to Head combat Scouts often seem to be able to get past and behind the Heavy.
Now, Scouts warring Armour Plate are just trying to be Scissors, and in doing so they are giving up some of their advantage against Sentinels.
Rock vs Scissors:
HMG Sentinels have the advantage against Assault suits within their range. The Assault suit is not going to be able to out DPS an HMG at less than 30m. For an Assault suit to beat an HMG Sentinel they either need to act like a Scout, out range the HMG, or work as a team.
An Assault suit that is not slowed by too much Armor Plate can greatly reduce the damage they take from an HMG by using large strafes, orbiting faster than the HMG can turn, doubling back causing the Heavy to over turn, and using Cover effectively. I have seen good players in Starter fits solo Proto HMGGÇÖs, but it is more challenging in an Assault suit than in a Scout suit due to slower movement and a larger hit box. The Sentinel does have a significant advantage over an Assault suit inside of 30m.
Beyond 30m the DPS of the HMG falls way off (unless it is an Assault HMG which works best at 30m and falls off around 40m). Across an open field, or even when firing from cover on either side of a street in an urban socket, any of the Infantry Rifles will do more DPS than a HMG. At that point the SentinelGÇÖs only advantage is greater Health. However, the Sentinel can not move around and strafe as effectively as an Assault suit, so the Assault suit is able to reduce their damage taken even further, tipping the scale in their favour even at 40m. At 60m most Rifles will kill an HMG Heavy even if the Assault suit stands still and takes all the HMG damage.
HMG Sentinels die most often to getting hit from multiple directions. They can only lay down suppression fire in one direction, so when fighting two or three Assault suits who are coming from different directions, only the Assault suit the Sentinel is shooting at needs to use cover and strafe to survive. The other Assault suits can concentrate on aiming. Yes it requires 3 against 1, but doing this you can take down the HMG Sentinel very quickly and easily, then take down another, and another without any of your fire-team dying.
So Why Do HMG Sentinels get so many kills?
1) Most players do not strafe. They just stand there like sitting ducks and try to out dps the HMG. A rifle is not going to out dps an HMG at less than 30m, so the suit with less dps and less health is going to die. This should be obvious, but a lot of people donGÇÖt seem to get it.
Beyond just noobish ignorance, the Myth of Aim Assist has convinced many long time players that there is no point in strafing. The Myth is that there is no point in strafing because aim-bot will track you regardless. This is not true. Aim Assist has a tolerance, and all you have to do to break the Aim Assist lock is move beyond the distance tolerance and the lock is broken. This just means slightly larger strafes than the jitter stepping that worked before.
2) Too many people packed in a tight corridor will block each other and interfere with their teammates ability to strafe effectively. When fighting three or more people I will often strafe sideways enough so that the guy I am shooting at is blocking the guys behind him from being able to fire on me. Essentially I will use my enemy as cover so that I only have to fight them one at a time. (Like Andre The Giant in PrinceGÇÖs Bride, I find it easier to fight a crowd of people than fighting one man solo.)
When fighting in confined spaces you will be much more effective as a team if you pay as much attention to where your teammates are and what they are doing as you do the Sentinel shooting at you. When shooting into a hallway with 4 or 5 people all bumping into each other trying to shoot at me at the same time it is like shooting fish in a barrel. In contrast when there are 4 or 5 people in a hallway, and the guy getting shot is allowed to back up when they get into armour, and someone else steps out to take his place, then they can provide continuous fire without the HMG getting a single kill.
Finally, if they have Logi, always kill the Logi first! Half the time the Sentinel will not even notice and will over extend themselves expecting reps that arenGÇÖt there.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3738
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Posted - 2014.06.18 13:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Holy ****.
There are still smart people here....
Sorry, I have been hanging out with other smart people on other forums. We may have been neglecting the General Discussion forum recently and for that I apologise.
Also, Rynoceros you need to start recruiting other geriatric DUST players. That name is too good for a one man Corp!
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3738
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Posted - 2014.06.18 13:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
BLOOD Ruler wrote:Where is scissors on paper....(whisper paper gets behind and covers scissors)Things are out of balance for assault
Hotfix Charily we hope.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3739
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Posted - 2014.06.18 15:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:lolno
Dust isn't as simple as rock-paper-scissors. Scouts are too niche-based to counter heavies reliably. I like what a dev said about buffing the damage that assaults do so they can take down heavies at range.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is a starting point. It represents who is meant to have the advantage. But it is not as clean cut as the finger game. If you know your strengths, and your opponentGÇÖs weaknesses, then you can use that knowledge to even the odds.
This is why as a Sentinel I normally fight Scouts while backing up as fast as I can, because I know that if I let them get too close I am toast. Scouts who are experienced at playing their class counter Sentinels very well right now.
This is why when an Assault fights a Sentinel they should either be using Scout techniques up close or using range to their advantage.
I do agree with giving Assault Suits a damage bonus. The scissors need to be sharp. I think that Assault should be a DPS class.
It should be:
Sentinel: High DPS, High Health, Low Agility, Low Stealth
Assault: High DPS, Medium Health, Medium Agility, Medium Stealth
Scout: Medium DPS, Low Health, High Agility, High Stealth.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3744
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Posted - 2014.06.18 16:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Its also harder for a strafing scout to take down a heavy when that heavy, even if decked out with armor plates, can turn so nearly as fast as any other untanked suit that the distinction is immaterial.
I wish I could do that. Unfortunately the HMG causes me to turn slightly slower than a Caldari Assault suit can run when orbiting me at 5m. When fighting fast moving suits in close quarters I often have to switch to my SMG for better tracking speeds.
One Eyed King wrote:True armor plate rotational speed reduction would not only make scouts more viable against armor plated heavies, but would reduce the effectiveness of brick tanked scouts and other brick tanked slayers. This is an interesting proposal.
One Eyed King wrote:Not to mention, the high stealth doesn't matter when a squad can equip a cal scout loaded with precision enhancers and pick up pretty much everyone for the heavies. Nothing like a heavy with the precision of a decked out scout to work with...
This has become a bit of a problem. Perhaps it would be better if there was a 5 db difference between the lowest profile that a suit can sense, and the lowest profile that they transmit to the Tac-Net? Say that only a solid readings gets transmitted while the Scout themselves can see the less conclusive readings. Then the Cal Scout can do the job of hunting down Scouts, without broadcasting those ScoutGÇÖs position to every Sentinel and Assault on the team.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3744
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Posted - 2014.06.18 16:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Regnier Feros wrote:what about the commando & logistics class where do they fit in this?
Commando: High DPS, High Health, Low speed/Agility, Low Stealth
The profile is similar to the Sentinel, only the CommandoGÇÖs Highs are not as high as the Sentinel and their Lows are not as low as the Sentinel. They are sort of an Assault suit that has exchanged Speed/Agility for more Health, and exchanged a Grenade slot for a second Light Weapon.
Logi: Medium DPS, Medium Health, Medium Speed/Agility, Medium Stealth
The Logi is Medium across the board, making them slightly less effective at combat, but they make up for this with more equipment slots and equipment bonuses.
Of course Assault donGÇÖt currently have the DPS bonus that I feel they should have, so the Assault are also Medium across the board, just like the logi, but without the extra equipment slots. 
Modules can of course be used to adjust your suitGÇÖs profile, particularly if you have lots of low slots to work with.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3745
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Posted - 2014.06.18 16:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:that text wall sounded pretty good. have a +1
i think assaults just need more HP
I am leaning toward more DPS rather than more HP.
What about giving them a 10% per level bonus to Damage Modifiers?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3749
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Posted - 2014.06.18 18:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Good writeup Fox, but disagreed on a few points.
I'm a Scout w/60,000+ Kills and 46m SP. I've typically run Biotic or eWar oriented Shotgun Scout suits since Chrome.
If I run shields and armor, I've no difficulty whatsoever soloing Heavies from behind. When I forgo HP in favor or ewar or biotics, shotgunning Heavies from behind is often a 50/50 gamble. Gallente Sentinels feature least favorable odds; under optimal conditions it takes me 3-4 seconds to kill them, and them one-tenth the time (~0.3 seconds) to kill me.
My Paper -- even when doing everything right -- is often resisted by their Rock.
Food for thought.
A fully brick tanked Gallente Sentinel has the most HP of any suit in the game. Even at 4 shots you can still probably take him down faster than I could with an HMG unless I got head shots, and if you got head shots you would probably have him in 3 shots rather than 4.
Given the amount of DPS an HMG turns out, and how low your health is without Plates, I would suggest that you look at attacking a Brick Tanked Heavy as 2 engagements rather than 1. Get your first two shots off before he gets turned around, note which way he is turning and then sprint past him on the other side, do a revers spin and hit him 2 more times in the back.
Replay:
- You shoot a Brick tanked HMG Sentinel in the back.
- He starts to turn. You shoot him again and see that he is turning left (Counter Clockwise).
- You Sprint past him on the right side, then sidestep left while spinning in 180 degrees right (Clockwise) while rolling your left stick from a left strafe to a backpedal to right strafe to put yourself into Counter Clockwise right strafing orbit around the Sentinel.
- At this point the Sentinel does not know where you went. He turned around and there was no Shotgun Scout to be found.
- If he reverses his turn, switch to a left strafe and stay behind him.
- At this point you can decide wether to finish him off with your Shotgun, or continue the process for comic relief.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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