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Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
288
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Posted - 2014.06.16 20:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
This discussion started in the salvage sticky, but I think it deserves a separate thread.
Long story short, in my opinion Legion should have FF always ON, in all security space. What should vary with security level is the consequences your actions have. In addition, the system should clearly show both the perpetrator and victim what is going on, and why certain things are happening.
The reason for this is to very early teach the players the game mechanics, and keep it consistent throughout New Eden. It should be noted this only applies to the free roaming PVE part of the game.
So, onto my proposal: This is based on the EVE crime watch symbols, which can be found here, especially the NPC and PVP flag (yellow and red circles with exclamation mark).
When a player deliberately or accidentally fire on another player, he will get a yellow symbol (like EVE NPC flag) on display in GUI with a countdown indicator. Instead of the counter always starting from full (like in EVE), it will be incremented by the percentage of EHP taken from the target. So, if just a few bullets hit and took 20% EHP from the target, the countdown timer will be 20% full. This is to prevent penalising accidental hits. The counter will immediately start countdown, and until it's fully gone the symbol will be presented on top of the perpetrator (by the health indicator) as well as the local chat. If he continues his careless ways and fire on the same or another player, the counter will increase with the percentage taken (as before). When he reaches 100% full (equivalent to 1 life), the countdown timer will switch to red (EVE PVP flag) and the counter will count down more slowly. If you kill another player while the counter is red (regardless of the current percentage), you will be kicked from high security space by Concord, and can't redeploy while the counter is active. You would not be kicked in low or null sec, but the flags will still be present to notify other players of your (potential) intent.
A little twist: If you have no counter and kill a player by taking his last 10% of life (previously damaged by another player), the counter will immediately switch to red and be filled 10%. If you kill another in this state you will get kicked as above. However, the victim have a option to forgive you (like in Dust FW), whereupon the counter will immediately start from 100% full yellow state. If the player don't forgive, you have to be very careful until the (red) timer goes to 0%, whereupon a 100% full yellow counter will commence.
For the victim: When you get hit by FF, the hit indicator will take the colour of the status of the perpetrator. So if the perpetrator has a red flag you won't see a difference from normal "enemy" (read:NPC) fire. If the player have a yellow flag, the hit indicator will be yellow, clearly distinguish it from "normal" fire.
I suggest to have the first yellow timer at 10 minutes (count down time from 100%), and the red 20 minutes. If you just accidentally shoot somebody (not kill), you probably have the yellow flag between 2-6 minutes, but if you deliberately gank / troll your fellow players with continuous violations you will fill your marker very quickly (and get kicked).
Thought?
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
289
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Posted - 2014.06.17 10:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's a interesting system, but I am a little causious of the complexity vs gain? Perhaps you can answer the following questions?
- Would safety be set default to be ON? (I guess it will be hidden somewhere in the system options?) - Since a few weapons require safety OFF (AOE weapons), when would you notice this? When you buy them (text in the description), or when you try and fire them for the first time? - Would a player with safety OFF be marked in some way to other players? - When lag comes into play, how will edge cases be handled? (Client hits but server misses or vice versa) - How will a player be notified that a "friendly" enters the causion zone? Info text on GUI? Character outlined? - Will players with safety ON somehow see the causion zone on display, and will it vary with each gun?
Basically, what I'm getting at is; while I like your system I feel the level of complexity with edge cases, information (text and GUI symbols required) along with the shear computation of it all (applies to certain guns, possible different zone sizes, special animations when jamming)... What would we gain?
- Preventing an (occasional) accidental shooting which would only result in you being marked with a yellow tag for 2 minutes or more? (And only for the players which have the feature ON in the first place)
Hope I didn't come off as harsh, but that's the way I see it |
Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
291
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Posted - 2014.06.17 16:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:The times you propose would be appropriate in EVE, but are too long for DUST. With the number of times Blueberries step in front of my HMG I would be yellow tagged 100% of the time. I think 30 seconds for 10% damage would be more appropriate (5 minutes for 100%). That would be 10 minutes for a kill.
Also, the victim should be able to kill the person they were killed by once without penalty (Kill Rights), but doing so should clear that personGÇÖs penalty flags.
We could also reduce security status for killing friendlies in High and Low Sec. Then if someone kills too many friendlies they start losing access to Salvaging Grounds in the highest security systems (1 & 0.9). Then as their security status drops further they loose access to the 0.8 and 0.7 systems, and then finally the 0.6 & 0.5 systems. When their security status gets low enough people will be able to team kill them without suffering any penalty in Low Sec.
How much of a hit your security status takes from a friendly kill should be proportional to the security status of the system, so friendly kills in High security space would drops your security status much faster than friendly kills in Low Security space.
Very good points The times were just taken on top of my head, so it would be easy to adjust it later to the exact conditions of Legion. Although I don't think we can compare Dust FW / Pubs blueberries and the future "blueberries" of Legion PVE . Part of the plan is to get away from the general mindless spray mentality and being oblivious to the surroundings that many players display in Dust (IMHO due to the disabled FF in pubs).
I was also thinking of Kill Rights, especially in low sec when you won't be kicked. If you go all out to destroy other players (and by doing so have a constant red marker), other players should be able to defend them self without invoking a penalty. Perhaps one could continue with the step ladder, which would work something like this:
Yellow -> Red -> Suspect -> Wanted
The suspect and wanted flags would only be visible outside of highsec, since you would get kicked if you kill while red flagged. I am hesitant to give kill rights for the first two levels since it is in the realm of accidental killing, but I am all for kill rights for suspect and wanted status. I would also like if you don't automatically loose the wanted flag without paying Concord a fee, which will then be removed after next downtime.
It would then be impossible to get lower status than red in high sec (you will get kicked before going lower). In low sec you can obtain suspect and wanted flags, and will then get barred from high sec play altogether.
I think this would give a relatively safe environment in high sec without systematic griefing, and still have FF ON in all security systems. |
Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
294
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 08:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Extymly Green Snake wrote:I'm the player that will be killing other players massively(if it will be profitable) - think for a moment in that perspective, ok. Ok
Extymly Green Snake wrote: I think that marking other players with rainbow colors for killing each other in First Person Shooter it's not good idea. Mechanics that works for EVE not necessary will work for Dust/Legion. In EVE when you find red's on local(low-s/null sec) you can perform a few task in order to prevent 'meeting' them if you think that you have no chance with them. Whatever you do it is time consuming, but you have to spend that time in order to get out of this situation safely. Sometimes you can not simply turn off game, or your computer because they will scan dawn your ship and destroy it.
I did know rainbows were just yellow and red, but ok I get your point. First off, my proposal is limited to empire controlled space, so null sec should not imply any tagging. Second, if you don't mark players which constantly violates the rules in empire space, you will have 0% chance of escaping them.
Extymly Green Snake wrote: EVE have open world - Dust not really. In FPS it is always will be 16 vs 16(or x vs x) for another 15 minutes. If Dust/Legion player will join match and see someone colored, he will quickly assess situations and leave without consequences - it will take him five seconds. Sooner or later he will find match that fit his needs perfectly(paradise for carebears with unicorns, mermaids and fluffy clouds). So whats the point of implementing mechanic which will show to players that want to stab each other in the back, and have no problem with it, that this place is for them, and everyone else have to keep looking for they salvaging-paradise?
I don't talk about DUST but Legion, which will not be a 16x16 lobby shooter but rather a "open world" similar to EVE, so I think the system can be similar. The tagging system is there to give the players the ability to make an informative decision, yes. Some players will be carebears and only play it safe (like EVE mining in high sec), but other people will value the potential reward higher (risk vs rewards). And if constant violations give like a wanted tag, you can bet other players will come for you directly. If you want to professionally backstabb people (I'm all for that btw), you need to work a little bit for it (I.e wait until the timer runs down). In addition, if you have a yellow marker you can't be distinguished between a person who just was a little careless in one fight.
So the point is; when you deploy on a (huge) open district and see people permanently tagged in the local chat, you know there are some dangerous people in the vicinity, but not were... You should have plenty of options to try and avoid them if you like, like EVE. And if you don't, well you have the option to leave.
Extymly Green Snake wrote: If you are in empire and you pointing with your Combat Rifle at your friend, you can not pull the trigger - if you spamming trigger button 'CONCORD' security system turns off your weapon for another X sec. or disallow you to use any weapon at your disposal, or shock you with some safe mechanise installed on your weapon so you lose HUD for some time. AoE weapon do not works or can not be activated. In a situation when someone comes to your line of fire, you should be able to continue fire, and guy on line of fire should felt that 'kick' on his back and aim.
The system Maken Tosch proposed is not bad for this purpose (I kind of like it). I just think it would take massive resources (and testing) to get it right for little gain.
With the tagging system I proposed you actually can backstabb people in high sec... You just need to be very professional and calculating to do so. |
Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
294
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 11:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Skylight Atoma wrote:I'll try not to sound like the dude who says "this is bad and you should feel bad", but as Snake mentioned this isn't a good idea.
From a lore perspective this wouldn't even work. CONCORD is already losing control of space from, how are they going to police planets too?
From a gameplay perspective, any variation from a binary FF on/off gets too complex and not fun in an FPS. In a more RPG setting it can be more appropriate (think Lineage 2) but not so much in an FPS especially if you start talking about weapon locks, let alone not letting someone play the game. DUST is 16v16 atm, but let's say Legion can go beyond that scale. Think about how not fun this would be if Planetside 2 had something similar, especially during installation sieges. Removing someone from gameplay arbitrarily isn't a fun game mechanic. This is one of the big problems I have with Archeage.
Now if you want to implement the suspect/criminal timers for other gameplay elements to add some risk, that might be interesting. Perhaps something like during salvage missions in low sec, if there are any kills or loots being stolen (how you determine that is another thing) it would show up on the star map and that person has a bounty placed on them. But don't make FF more complicated than it needs to be.
The point is (like you say ), CONCORD can't police planets. I highly doubt we will have NPC CONCORD enforces roaming the districts, similar what EVE have. That leaves the our ability to clone jump, which will be done to neutral CRUs controlled by some NPC corporation. I think it's not to far fetched to think CONCORD have an influence in who have access to these facilities in high sec.
The funny thing is, what I am proposing is actually simpler than friendly fire ON/OFF, since it would always be ON. However, it's important that both the perpetrator and victim knows what is going on, otherwise it just gets frustrating and rage inducing. The idea behind the tagging system is to foremost give information, but also allow high sec to be a relatively safe place by removing players who goes on a rampage and generally trolling people. The system gives plenty of leeway for accidental shootings, while giving the person ample warnings to back off to not get kicked. The teammates will also have an option to forgive, to further reduce the probability. Also note that the kicking part will not occur below high sec, so there anything goes..
Also note that this idea is intended for Legion PVE exploration and looting. Standup PVP matches, and planetary conquest etc can (and perhaps should) be handled differently. I.e, to tagging will occur, but other wise the system stays the same.
The other option is to have FF OFF in highsec, which will lead to some (IMHO) unwanted side effects: - I will KNOW other players can't shoot me, removing the uncertainty and suspense completely. - I can just learn to spray and pray, lobbing grenades into a bunch of friendlies in CQC with a drone etc. this will later get me in trouble in low sec where suddenly FF is turned ON. - with FF ON in low sec, and no consequences and tagging of players, what to stop the biggest trolls and jerks to just ruin the experience for everybody? Then perhaps they need to introduce the Dust FW mechanics where you DO get kicked after excessive FF, which is something I don't want.
Regarding the star map, I would like to see information like number of clones destroyed / hour from NPC and PVP. No information should be given who is there, just that it might not be the safest place to spawn.
Players need to know the risks they get into, and make a decision based on this. This is all ... |
Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
294
|
Posted - 2014.06.21 19:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Skylight Atoma wrote:Ah, I thought this was going to apply to all game modes, not just salvaging. Even still I don't think it's necessary to "re-invent the wheel" so to speak.
I do agree that FF off can lead to non-optimal habits and lazy gameplay, but it's not a bad system in itself. Let's say only high sec was FF off, it would appeal to players who don't want to deal with FF and also give a break to people who spend most of their time in low/null. I prefer to play games on the hardest difficulty most of the time, but sometimes I don't. With high sec being FF off I could keep playing Legion and relax rather than having to play another game and relax. As much as you can relax in an FPS.
Also, it wouldn't only just be strange to have particular safety rules in one game in one area of space (why am I discouraged to shoot people in high sec salvage but am not in other salvage modes and also don't even have FF in other high sec modes?), it would remove a person from making money for x amount of time whether by accident or on purpose. I don't know if that's a good idea to deny playtime/income, especially considering that high sec salvage will be of least value, but it will be something. You could be poor/want to grind ISK and play HS salvage without the risk of continuing to stay poor due to others abusing mechanics.
"with FF ON in low sec, and no consequences and tagging of players, what to stop the biggest trolls and jerks to just ruin the experience for everybody?"
Nothing, but what is going to stop those trolls from finding ways to ruin anyone's gameplay regardless of the rules in place? Also nothing. It's going to happen no matter what, in one form or another, so at least have a place, high sec, where you don't have to worry about player killing trolls.
I see your point. I am not totally opposed to having FF OFF in high sec, but it need to be communicated much much better than currently in Dust. There also need to be a way of communicating to new players the risks they take when they deploy into low sec, and what they can expect in term of resistance. I don't want 1.0- 0.6 to be totally safe, with 0.5- 0.0 being basically equal Null sec.
But I fear this is what we will get if we suddenly switch FF ON without warning and consequences. Then the security status will mean nothing, other than a border between totally safe and dead.
Question (on the assumption there will be some kicking mechanic in the game): Would you rather have the possibility to get kicked in low sec (where the interesting loot is) and be forced to scavenge in high sec for the kick duration, or the possibility to get kicked in high sec but still able to play in low sec?
With a countdown timer, you could technically make it go faster / slower based on the system security status relative to your own security status (if that makes it into the game). Although I don't want to make it too complicated.
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
295
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Posted - 2014.06.22 06:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Skylight Atoma wrote:The only real difference in EVE with low and null is low has faction guns in some places. Depending on how well developed the AIs are maybe low sec salvages can have a chance for faction NPCs to drop down, be hostile to everything, and try to take the loot for themselves. This chance could increase with the amount of damage done to players by players, since the empires might be paying more attention to hot spots. I'd rather have something like that than a restriction on gameplay.
Interesting idea
Trust me, I am not fond of the kicking mechanic either, but trolling and systematic team killing need to be minimised in high sec. If this can be achieved by other than kicking mechanic, I am all for it
The tagging system proposed is primarily to give players the information they need to make an informative decision about their own and other's actions. Even without any other consequences (no kicking) it enables players to judge the threat level from other players, so they can bail or try and avoid them.
You could even thigh this system to a personal security decrease, which could give other consequences (no kicking)?
Basically as I see it: - Limiting freedom of action (FF OFF, kicking etc) should be avoided if possible. - All actions should have consequences which vary with security level, with biggest hit in 1.0 systems. - Player should be fully informed (at all times) what consequences his actions have, and how close he is to triggering them. This mechanic needs to be a simple as possible to keep track of in heat of battle, which is why I thought of a colour coded count down timer |
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