Alright, there are a lot of people out there who think that rail turrets are far too powerful. There are also those of us who think that the rail turrets range is appalling....especially when compared to the forge gun.

Drop ships use this to their advantage especially when they get hit and climb out of range in an instant, making killing drop ships virtually impossible.

Considering that the rail gun's range is only 300m (which is a joke, considering what a rail gun actually does) and a rail gun round travels at hyper-sonic velocities, there should be no delay from the firing of the round to hitting the target.

Drop ship pilots will no doubt scream bloody murder at this idea, but it does make sense.

You would think that rail guns in the future would be able to launch a projectile at least as fast as the prototypes we have today, which are in the area of MACH 7, or 2.4KM per second. At most the delay should be .125 sec, and as it sits now, it takes around a second for the round to reach 300 meters.

At least with that speed there would be a reasonable explanation for the range: "The round is traveling so fast that it is only able to withstand the friction of the atmosphere for that long before atomizing...."

Tankers would also benefit/drawback of this.

Considering that the rail gun's range is only 300m (which is a joke, considering what a rail gun actually does) and a rail gun round travels at hyper-sonic velocities, there should be no delay from the firing of the round to hitting the target.

Hi, I'm a dedicated dropship pilot. I do hope you understand the reasoning behind the reduced range of the large rail turret as it was put in place for a reason.
As to your suggestion I find it interesting. From a gameplay aspect it might troublesome, not just for dropships but for all vehicles. If this were to be implemented I would like a compromise as both a tanker and a dropship pilot, the large rail must charge before every shot. The rate of charge doesn't increase after the first shot. Sound fair?

You also have to understand that if things where to be implemented as they were in real life the projectile should have a falloff. If you want this mechanic to happen then I also suggest applying falloff to the turret. What would happen is longer range but smaller amount of damage at range.

optimal 200 meters
70% damage 300 meters
40% damage 400 meters
10% damage 500 meters
0% damage beyond

The overall effect would be that you would game more range and "faster hit registration" but at the cost of reduced damage at a distance since, if we look at how a railgun functions, the projectile will always lose energy the longer it travels.

This would seem fair. Longer range for reduced damage at a range but not a lack of it.

ON ANOTHER THOUGH

Missile turret users, being missiles a self propelled projectile, should have more range than they currently have yet, they do not seem to mind having less range than rail guns. It doesn't seem fair since Like I've already said, if we were to make the functions of the weapons as they are supposed to function then missiles would have no fallof (which they do) and the railgun would have fallof. Missiles would have longer range (which they currently don't) and the railgun would have less range which it currently doesn't.

CONCLUSION

While there are some valid point to your suggestion the current balancing systems are in place for a reason and, while many railgun users would certainly enjoy the range they once had, this amount of range and the instant hit mechanic that you are asking for would completely be abused like it once was in the past.

Hi, I'm a dedicated dropship pilot. I do hope you understand the reasoning behind the reduced range of the large rail turret as it was put in place for a reason.
As to your suggestion I find it interesting. From a gameplay aspect it might troublesome, not just for dropships but for all vehicles. If this were to be implemented I would like a compromise as both a tanker and a dropship pilot, the large rail must charge before every shot. The rate of charge doesn't increase after the first shot. Sound fair?

I understand why they reduced the range, the abuse was pretty bad, but now, drop ship pilots are abusing their ability to climb out of any weapon range.

Either way, if you balance one thing, someone is going to complain about it, it's just the nature of the beast.....

I do understand the reasoning, and I don't fault CCP for doing it. I can't even fault them for the result of the reduction, they can't see everything before it happens.

I also think this is a great idea. It would essentially reduce the rate of fire of the tank gun, but still keep it viable on the field.

This implemented with the range increase(with falloff) would allow tanks to be more effective on the field when it comes to dropships....

I don't want to see any vehicle or weapon be nerfed to oblivion, just as I don't want to see any weapon buffed to the all mighty "God-mode". I would just like to see a happy medium across the board. Each weapon would fill its roll and do it well.....(some more than others)

Currently, the Fire Interval is 1.4 (in CCP units) which roughly translates to being the average human reaction time. This is why any assertion that dropships 'abusing' the reduced range of Railguns is simply hyperbolic nonsense. Any DS pilot receiving a rail hit and then escaping has had their reflexes honed to that point by 1.6 (the Dark Ages) where 600m range, 1 second travel time, no fall off and tiny fire interval meant any and every DS in the sky was simply wasted money...or you got good.

Personally, I'd like to see the range of Railguns increased to something like 450m and the projectile speed increased, but I *would* scream bloody murder if it wasn't accompanied by the introduction of damage fall off and better redline positioning.

Yes there would defiantly have to be fall off if there was a range increase.

Personally I think that the large rail gun shouldn't be very good against dropships. Its my belief that each turret should have a sort of role that's somewhat flexible but has its ups and downs.
Rail: anti tank/installation turret, decent ai if you can hit
Blaster: anti infantry and anti shield vehicle
Missile: anti air and anti armor vehicle
Of course for this to work missile turrets would need to change, they would need a higher elevation angle for their main turret and would need longer range of the missiles. Which would be okay because you have to factor in flight time. As a missile tanker/dropship pilot I would fully support this.

If you want to fit AA on your tank you can do so, slap a rail on top and have a gunner along. This can be quite an effective anti dropship weapon on a tank. Also with the model above if rail and blaster tanks wanted AA they could do this, or have a missile tank along with them in support.

How would you feel about this?

Well it's not abuse, you see, before the balance of rail turrets dropships could not get away and rail tankers got used to this. Now they have a chance to escape so what they don't have in tank they make up for in being able to escape.

And dropships die all the time to rails... all the time

When I hit a drop ship 3 times and he simply climbs out of range there is something wrong with that. I'm not saying that it should be impossible to escape, I am just saying it needs to not be super easy. Perhaps making it so the afterburner only effect acceleration and not climb....that could be a medium everyone could agree on(except for the people who "need" to use that mechanic....)

If you hit a dropship 3 times and it's not dead you are doing something wrong

Yeah, my thoughts exactly: a militia railgun does 1450/hit, all three shots are landing within 4 seconds currently, so that's around 4350 damage/1087 DPS.
An Incubus with Heavy Rep (aka, the toughest dropship build) is looking at a ceiling of around 3000ish armour, maybe a maximum of 3400. Even with the current damage profile of the railgun being erroneously +10/-10, that's almost enough to destroy it.

With a militia railgun and no damage mods.

If they are running hardeners as well as an armor rep, then yes, they can get out of it easily. You are drop ship pilots, so I understand you wanting to find flaws in my argument. There might be more than a few, but this is not one of them.

I have hit a drop ship with my first shot, hardeners come on, hit it again, afterburner follows, drop ship runs to the safety of altitude.....hitting it one more time(if lucky) and the drop ship gets away.....

Finding holes in not difficult in such a porous argument...

adv turret 3 shots = 5004 damage

pro turret 3 shots = 5655 damage

max armor on incubus is 4200 sacrificing the xt for an at missile turret and with fitting optimization 5 for armor and missile turrets and including a complex powergrid expansion (MAX skills) for a total HP of 5150 at max skills in which case a max skilled tank can three shot a max skilled ADS.

Even with hardeners the current effective HP doesn't go above the 5150 mark and it's impossible fittings wise to fit that much HP and a hardener at the same time.

average fits only include an enhanced or basic 120 plate in which case the maximum armor with an enhanced plate would be 3800 armor for a total of 4750 which can be more than three shot by an adv raail turret. In this ase it is also impossible to fit a hardener because you would not have a repper which no pilot in dust ever does.

Chances are you are trying to kill a maxed out pilot with a not so maxed out turret

No need to be ignorant and disrespectful.

He says, dismissing numbers/facts and experiences...

Your sidestepping the issue, regardless of what your numbers say, the issue of catapulting upward is a problem.

Considering dropships get 2 or 3 shotted, rails need no buffs.

It's not a problem I gave you the numbers; I use tanks and am an ADS Pilot. I know what I am talking about. The real problem is people wanting easy kills and not wanting to fit decent weaponry or train decent weaponry for their tanks and think that the tank should just kill everything regardless of turret tier and I disagree.

Again I gave you the numbers that show a dropship will always die at the third consecutive shot as long as the turret dealing the damage is of the same skill level as the pilot.

Please, why don't you present some of your facts for me? I would gladly engage in some meaningful discourse, if you have anything relevant to say in the matter. Up until this point, however, all you have managed to do, is some poor attempt at trolling.....

If you hit a dropship 3 times and it's not dead you are doing something wrong

I think Ghaz/Dalton were referring to Large Railguns. Ghaz did the maths and showed that a Hardened, Plated Incubus couldn't stand up to three hits from a Railgun at ADV/PRO level, and I believe that is without even factoring in pre-Hotfix Bravo damage mods (30%, no stacking penalties) though maybe he was including them.

Forge Guns certainly are not nearly as capable against a dropship as a Railgun, partly this is due to the Incubus being able to reach ungodly amounts of reps and partly due to agility allowing a good pilot to bob and weave. I believe Hotfix Bravo will alleviate the FG/ADS balance somewhat through two things:
- they are fixing the bug that meant Proficiency did not apply to Swarms/FGs
- Heavy Armour Repairers are losing a good chunk of HP/S

That should go a long way towards balancing ADS/infantry AV balance, and Rattati and Logibro have been pretty awesome on the current round of Hotfixes so far.

I think Ghaz/Dalton were referring to Large Railguns. Ghaz did the maths and showed that a Hardened, Plated Incubus couldn't stand up to three hits from a Railgun at ADV/PRO level, and I believe that is without even factoring in pre-Hotfix Bravo damage mods (30%, no stacking penalties) though maybe he was including them.

Forge Guns certainly are not nearly as capable against a dropship as a Railgun, partly this is due to the Incubus being able to reach ungodly amounts of reps and partly due to agility allowing a good pilot to bob and weave. I believe Hotfix Bravo will alleviate the FG/ADS balance somewhat through two things:
- they are fixing the bug that meant Proficiency did not apply to Swarms/FGs
- Heavy Armour Repairers are losing a good chunk of HP/S

That should go a long way towards balancing ADS/infantry AV balance, and Rattati and Logibro have been pretty awesome on the current round of Hotfixes so far.

You are correct that a well fitted ADS vs a Proto turret equals a "3 shot game" for the most part. In fairness, with a pilot who has any skill getting those shots to hit home in the critical time window is particularly tough. ADS pilots have a lot of tactical advantages that are extremely difficult to overcome.
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so basically give railguns back their range so you can sit in the redline and 2 shot any vehicle you see without risking a tank, you can have the range back when my dropship is allowed to stay in your redline for longer than 20 seconds.

Why would I bother to read the entire thread, rail tankers are only interested in 2 things, nuking everything and doing it from safety.

You might feel this is true but you also have to understand that dropships are a lot easier to spot. There is a lot less cover in the air than there is for a ground vehicle. We are openly exposed so our ability to evade incoming hits is the balancing aspect. ADS pilots alone don't have the strength to kill a tank as fast as a tank can kill us so most of the time and while we pose a low/moderate threat to tanks as individual pilots, tanks pose an enormous threat to us. Even when difficult to hit an experienced tanker will most likely kill us in third hit. These encounters usually go as follows and usually happen during ADS attacking infantry or unaware: The first hit is the warning shot. This shot, most of the times, lets you know you are the target. The second is always the freebie, it comes in almost always before/when you are reacting and the third is where the tankers true skill comes into play; we have already been warned, we have already reacted and are on our way to safety usually moving at high speed.

Even with the proposed changes a proto rail turret can still kill a proto ads in 3 shots with a basic damage mod and most vanilla builds without one.

The combination of a hardener and afterburner makes DS's a very tough kill if the pilot has any thing on the ball. I will absolutely grant you that it's probably the most skill intensive (real skill not SP) activities in the game and that that skill should be rewarded.

Quick additional note, i noticed the discussion on missile turrets being the optimized anti-air platform. I could get behind that idea and I would also say that if we go with that logic the Swarm missile launcher needs to be noticeably more effective against DS.