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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1475
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Posted - 2014.06.16 05:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:
Considering that the rail gun's range is only 300m (which is a joke, considering what a rail gun actually does) and a rail gun round travels at hyper-sonic velocities, there should be no delay from the firing of the round to hitting the target.
You also have to understand that if things where to be implemented as they were in real life the projectile should have a falloff. If you want this mechanic to happen then I also suggest applying falloff to the turret. What would happen is longer range but smaller amount of damage at range.
optimal 200 meters
70% damage 300 meters
40% damage 400 meters
10% damage 500 meters
0% damage beyond
The overall effect would be that you would game more range and "faster hit registration" but at the cost of reduced damage at a distance since, if we look at how a railgun functions, the projectile will always lose energy the longer it travels.
This would seem fair. Longer range for reduced damage at a range but not a lack of it.
ON ANOTHER THOUGH
Missile turret users, being missiles a self propelled projectile, should have more range than they currently have yet, they do not seem to mind having less range than rail guns. It doesn't seem fair since Like I've already said, if we were to make the functions of the weapons as they are supposed to function then missiles would have no fallof (which they do) and the railgun would have fallof. Missiles would have longer range (which they currently don't) and the railgun would have less range which it currently doesn't.
CONCLUSION
While there are some valid point to your suggestion the current balancing systems are in place for a reason and, while many railgun users would certainly enjoy the range they once had, this amount of range and the instant hit mechanic that you are asking for would completely be abused like it once was in the past.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1475
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Posted - 2014.06.16 06:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:
I understand why they reduced the range, the abuse was pretty bad, but now, drop ship pilots are abusing their ability to climb out of any weapon range.
Either way, if you balance one thing, someone is going to complain about it, it's just the nature of the beast.....
Well it's not abuse, you see, before the balance of rail turrets dropships could not get away and rail tankers got used to this. Now they have a chance to escape so what they don't have in tank they make up for in being able to escape.
And dropships die all the time to rails... all the time
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1485
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Posted - 2014.06.16 15:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Dalton Smithe wrote:
I understand why they reduced the range, the abuse was pretty bad, but now, drop ship pilots are abusing their ability to climb out of any weapon range.
Either way, if you balance one thing, someone is going to complain about it, it's just the nature of the beast.....
Well it's not abuse, you see, before the balance of rail turrets dropships could not get away and rail tankers got used to this. Now they have a chance to escape so what they don't have in tank they make up for in being able to escape. And dropships die all the time to rails... all the time When I hit a drop ship 3 times and he simply climbs out of range there is something wrong with that. I'm not saying that it should be impossible to escape, I am just saying it needs to not be super easy. Perhaps making it so the afterburner only effect acceleration and not climb....that could be a medium everyone could agree on(except for the people who "need" to use that mechanic....)
If you hit a dropship 3 times and it's not dead you are doing something wrong
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1489
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Posted - 2014.06.16 18:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Dalton Smithe wrote:When I hit a drop ship 3 times and he simply climbs out of range there is something wrong with that. I'm not saying that it should be impossible to escape, I am just saying it needs to not be super easy. Perhaps making it so the afterburner only effect acceleration and not climb....that could be a medium everyone could agree on(except for the people who "need" to use that mechanic....) If you hit a dropship 3 times and it's not dead you are doing something wrong Yeah, my thoughts exactly: a militia railgun does 1450/hit, all three shots are landing within 4 seconds currently, so that's around 4350 damage/1087 DPS. An Incubus with Heavy Rep (aka, the toughest dropship build) is looking at a ceiling of around 3000ish armour, maybe a maximum of 3400. Even with the current damage profile of the railgun being erroneously +10/-10, that's almost enough to destroy it. With a militia railgun and no damage mods. If they are running hardeners as well as an armor rep, then yes, they can get out of it easily. You are drop ship pilots, so I understand you wanting to find flaws in my argument. There might be more than a few, but this is not one of them. I have hit a drop ship with my first shot, hardeners come on, hit it again, afterburner follows, drop ship runs to the safety of altitude.....hitting it one more time(if lucky) and the drop ship gets away.....
adv turret 3 shots = 5004 damage
pro turret 3 shots = 5655 damage
max armor on incubus is 4200 sacrificing the xt for an at missile turret and with fitting optimization 5 for armor and missile turrets and including a complex powergrid expansion (MAX skills) for a total HP of 5150 at max skills in which case a max skilled tank can three shot a max skilled ADS.
Even with hardeners the current effective HP doesn't go above the 5150 mark and it's impossible fittings wise to fit that much HP and a hardener at the same time.
average fits only include an enhanced or basic 120 plate in which case the maximum armor with an enhanced plate would be 3800 armor for a total of 4750 which can be more than three shot by an adv raail turret. In this ase it is also impossible to fit a hardener because you would not have a repper which no pilot in dust ever does.
Chances are you are trying to kill a maxed out pilot with a not so maxed out turret
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1501
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Posted - 2014.06.17 06:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:
Your sidestepping the issue, regardless of what your numbers say, the issue of catapulting upward is a problem.
It's not a problem I gave you the numbers; I use tanks and am an ADS Pilot. I know what I am talking about. The real problem is people wanting easy kills and not wanting to fit decent weaponry or train decent weaponry for their tanks and think that the tank should just kill everything regardless of turret tier and I disagree.
Again I gave you the numbers that show a dropship will always die at the third consecutive shot as long as the turret dealing the damage is of the same skill level as the pilot.
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1501
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Posted - 2014.06.18 00:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:I think Ghaz/Dalton were referring to Large Railguns. Ghaz did the maths and showed that a Hardened, Plated Incubus couldn't stand up to three hits from a Railgun at ADV/PRO level, and I believe that is without even factoring in pre-Hotfix Bravo damage mods (30%, no stacking penalties) though maybe he was including them.
Forge Guns certainly are not nearly as capable against a dropship as a Railgun, partly this is due to the Incubus being able to reach ungodly amounts of reps and partly due to agility allowing a good pilot to bob and weave. I believe Hotfix Bravo will alleviate the FG/ADS balance somewhat through two things:
- they are fixing the bug that meant Proficiency did not apply to Swarms/FGs
- Heavy Armour Repairers are losing a good chunk of HP/S
That should go a long way towards balancing ADS/infantry AV balance, and Rattati and Logibro have been pretty awesome on the current round of Hotfixes so far.
Yes I was talking about ADV/PROTO rails without any damage mods on them.
I have to agree that killing dropships with forge guns is difficult but it's not impossible. CCP has also stated that AV weaponry should help to chase away as a function and not always kill therefore the inclusion of warpoints per damage done in one of the iterations post 1.7 vehicle rebalance.
I do understand the frustrations because I too am a proto forger and it bothers me when an ADS just swooshes away but then Again That's where the real challenge comes from. With an assault forge and the right skills you can lead your shot enough to kill it even though it's hard as hell. With swarms, I believe that people should completely specialize into them before judging because MY friend with minmamatar commando 5 and swarm spec 3 can decimate tanks and ADS with wyrkomi swarms in a way I never thought possible; so full specialization is key to these weapons.
I would also like to include that any real change should also be done after the proficiencies are fixed to see what kind of impact it will have vs vehicles
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
Proficiency V.
1501
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Posted - 2014.06.18 01:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:
You are correct that a well fitted ADS vs a Proto turret equals a "3 shot game" for the most part. In fairness, with a pilot who has any skill getting those shots to hit home in the critical time window is particularly tough. ADS pilots have a lot of tactical advantages that are extremely difficult to overcome.
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You might feel this is true but you also have to understand that dropships are a lot easier to spot. There is a lot less cover in the air than there is for a ground vehicle. We are openly exposed so our ability to evade incoming hits is the balancing aspect. In the same fashion ADS pilots alone don't have the strength to kill a tank as fast as a tank can kill us so most of the time while we pose a low/moderate threat to tanks as individual pilots, tanks pose an enormous threat to us. Even when difficult to hit and experienced tanker will most likely kill us in third hit. These encounters usually go as follows and usually happen during ADS attacking infantry or unaware: The first hit is the warning shot. This shot, most of the times, lets you know you are the target. The second is always the freebie, it comes in almost always before/when you are reacting and the third is where the tankers true skill comes into play; we have already been warned, we have already reacted and are on our way to safety usually moving at high speed.
Even with the proposed changes a proto rail turret can still kill a proto ads in 3 shots with a basic damage mod and most vanilla builds without one most .
Plasma Cannon Advocate
Dust 514 Survivor
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