DUST Search - Shield module changes (SPREADSHEET INSIDE)

Aeon Amadi wrote:

DeathwindRising wrote:

Anything over 30% for shield regulators will put the shield delay under two seconds when stacked. Is that intended? Caldari assault with ~400 shield hp and ~60hp/s recharge and delay under 2 seconds? Combined with mobility, you wouldn't kill one of these unless you grabbed him by the neck and shot him in the face lol

The thing about a percentage based module (this was discussed in depth in Skype) is that once you start stacking it naturally incurs it's own stacking penalty. The entire thing we're wanting to encourage is a for players to utilize regulators over armor plates as there really is no reason to do so. You also have to consider that shield extenders penalize the depleted shield recharge delay, so currently you have to fit regulators to compensate for the penalty of having extenders on your fit in the first place.

All in all there's a lot in the way of shield tanks being viable and the overall goal is to focus Shields in their area of expertise: Rapid recovery. I'm honestly not too worried about a guy with ~400 shield HP and ~60HP/s recharge because in a fire-fight, that's less than a second of direct fire from my Assault Rifle, which is already getting a very hefty bonus against shields. Laser weaponry will perform even better and once the meta begins to shift to shield modules a bit more, you'll see a lot more Amarr Commandos and Assaults to compensate.

It looks startling at first but you have to consider that there are suits available in game that have -MUCH- lighter delays than that, for instance the Caldari Sentinel which has a 1 second depleted delay. It's regarded as a true shield tank, bolstering rapid recovery at the expense of being easier to kill, it just so happens to also be one of the easiest sentinels to kill (at least for me).

Assuming you're right, and it gets really hard to deal with, there is absolutely nothing stopping us from reversing some of the changes and dialing it back until it settles in a nice spot. This is just the starting point and I think a lot of shield users will be happy to see these changes Big smile


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DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 314	Posted - 2014.06.06 06:02:00 - [1] - Quote Anything over 30% for shield regulators will put the shield delay under two seconds when stacked. Is that intended? Caldari assault with ~400 shield hp and ~60hp/s recharge and delay under 2 seconds? Combined with mobility, you wouldn't kill one of these unless you grabbed him by the neck and shot him in the face lol
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 314	Posted - 2014.06.06 07:46:00 - [2] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Anything over 30% for shield regulators will put the shield delay under two seconds when stacked. Is that intended? Caldari assault with ~400 shield hp and ~60hp/s recharge and delay under 2 seconds? Combined with mobility, you wouldn't kill one of these unless you grabbed him by the neck and shot him in the face lol Or if you just kill him without giving him time to hide and regen, I think it would be balanced since there is stacking penalties, and the low slots could otherwise have been used to stack 160+ armor (2 plates); I think its a fair HP vs regen speed tradeoff. Also, a Caldari assault can't have 60hp/s regen rate without using 2 energizers; a significant slot sacrifice, even with a prototype Caldari assault you cannot have enough high slots left over after using 2 energizers to get 400 shields. 1 complex energizer and 1 complex recharger is what? about 54 hp/s? and 2 complex exteneders gives you 392 shields... which is surprizingly, about 400 shields (this symbol " ~ " means approximately)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 314	Posted - 2014.06.06 08:00:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Anything over 30% for shield regulators will put the shield delay under two seconds when stacked. Is that intended? Caldari assault with ~400 shield hp and ~60hp/s recharge and delay under 2 seconds? Combined with mobility, you wouldn't kill one of these unless you grabbed him by the neck and shot him in the face lol The thing about a percentage based module (this was discussed in depth in Skype) is that once you start stacking it naturally incurs it's own stacking penalty. The entire thing we're wanting to encourage is a for players to utilize regulators over armor plates as there really is no reason to do so. You also have to consider that shield extenders penalize the depleted shield recharge delay, so currently you have to fit regulators to compensate for the penalty of having extenders on your fit in the first place. All in all there's a lot in the way of shield tanks being viable and the overall goal is to focus Shields in their area of expertise: Rapid recovery. I'm honestly not too worried about a guy with ~400 shield HP and ~60HP/s recharge because in a fire-fight, that's less than a second of direct fire from my Assault Rifle, which is already getting a very hefty bonus against shields. Laser weaponry will perform even better and once the meta begins to shift to shield modules a bit more, you'll see a lot more Amarr Commandos and Assaults to compensate. It looks startling at first but you have to consider that there are suits available in game that have -MUCH- lighter delays than that, for instance the Caldari Sentinel which has a 1 second depleted delay. It's regarded as a true shield tank, bolstering rapid recovery at the expense of being easier to kill, it just so happens to also be one of the easiest sentinels to kill (at least for me). Assuming you're right, and it gets really hard to deal with, there is absolutely nothing stopping us from reversing some of the changes and dialing it back until it settles in a nice spot. This is just the starting point and I think a lot of shield users will be happy to see these changes they die easily because they arent being played to their strengths. the guy you killed was probably using non- racial weapons and/or fighting you at close range. try fighting the same guy at max RR optimal range or forge gun or sniper ranges and youll notice your attemps are rather futile at best. shield tank gain an indirect advantage when used at long range, as non laser weapons are ineffective at punching through all shield hp BEFORE the target has time to react and get to cover. even sniper rounds (excluding thales) cant break it unless its a tactical with good player accuracy and maybe a headshot in there. lowering the delay makes it possible to under 2 seconds makes it extremely hard to be killed by a sniper rifle because the delay between shots combined with the need to take time to refocus your aim between shots is longer than the shield delay. if you miss any of the following shots, your target will likely have full shields again by the time you land a hit. your target can repeat this as necessary. i find ~400 shield hp the minimum for defending against a sniper shot. 3 seconds or less for the shield delay. ~60 hp/s for recharge to be optimal. the deplete delay should never even be a factor when building a shield tank because you should never let your shields hit zero. the fact that extenders affect depleted delay means it doesnt interfere with your tank as much as you think.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 314	Posted - 2014.06.06 10:26:00 - [4] - Quote THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Anything over 30% for shield regulators will put the shield delay under two seconds when stacked. Is that intended? Caldari assault with ~400 shield hp and ~60hp/s recharge and delay under 2 seconds? Combined with mobility, you wouldn't kill one of these unless you grabbed him by the neck and shot him in the face lol Or if you just kill him without giving him time to hide and regen, I think it would be balanced since there is stacking penalties, and the low slots could otherwise have been used to stack 160+ armor (2 plates); I think its a fair HP vs regen speed tradeoff. Also, a Caldari assault can't have 60hp/s regen rate without using 2 energizers; a significant slot sacrifice, even with a prototype Caldari assault you cannot have enough high slots left over after using 2 energizers to get 400 shields. 1 complex energizer and 1 complex recharger is what? about 54 hp/s? and 2 complex exteneders gives you 392 shields... which is surprizingly, about 400 shields (this symbol " ~ " means approximately) You'd be waay too squishy with 400 shields on an assault suit. 2 seconds also is way too long to regen in a 1v1 fight even against slow rof weapons... even if the enemy has to reload you'd still have only regend for 1 second by the time they finish reloading, making any shield regen pointless just as it always has been at point blank 1v1s. In ranged engagements sure you'd be hard to take down but that's literally the entire point of caldari and shields.... To have regen and small hp tank work 2 things are required, cloaks, and strafe fast enough to avoid fire very consistently at close range. Scouts have these things and can thus abuse them which is why scouts are op except when caught a the wrong distance, but a caldari assault can't fit a cloak and cannot strafe fast enough to avoid most players fire at close range, making it useless to regen tank... That's my point. What seems to be going on here is an attempt undo the only real weakness of shield tanking. Shields are supposed to suck at point blank range. What I'm saying is clearly nobody understands what shields were meant for. They are for deflecting/absorbing incidental damage. Damage for falls, non fatal explosions, glancing shots, anything not really meant to kill but simply inflict damage or annoyance is handled by shields. That's why they perform better at range. That's why they suck at close range. It's always been deliberate. No other race besides caldari puts any faith on shields saving them in combat. The caldari do it because they never intend to be on the front lines. So what do you guys really want here? Shield extenders with hp equal to plates? Zero shield delay lol?
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 314	Posted - 2014.06.06 12:24:00 - [5] - Quote TL:DR buff basic and enhanced shield regulators to 20% and 25% respectively , and maybe complex to 30%. OR keep them as is and lower their cpu costs here's a current shield tank build for a caldari assault ck.0 dropsuit. 2 complex shields extenders 1 complex shield energizer 1 complex shield recharger 2 complex shield regulators 1 complex cpu upgrade heres the shield stats from that: 392 shield hp (~400 shield hp) 71.98 hp/s shield recharge (this is way over 60 hp/s yay! \o/) 2.76 seconds shield delay (under 3 seconds. good) 5.3 seconds depleted shield delay (dont care about this number at all) you can swap the shield energizer for a shield recharger and 408 shield hp and 63.17 shield hp/s recharge if you REALLY think the extra 16 hp will save you lol. you want your delay under 3 seconds as the current target, but honestly you want it as close to zero as you can without gimping shield hp and recharge. 2.76 seconds is the best you can do without dropping the cpu upgrade for a third regulator (which would give you 2.33 seconds shield delay) the problem is that without that cpu upgrade you cant run the shield rechargers, so you have to downgrade to whatever will fit here's an example full fit: 2 complex shields extenders 1 complex shield recharger 1 enhanced shield recharger 3 complex shield regulators 1 std AR you end up using 383/394 cpu and 33/79 pg. downgrading to an enhanced shield recharger brings you to 55.61 shield hp/s and gives a 2.33 seconds shield delay. not really worth it IMO. so... is shield tanking really as broken as everyone thinks, or do people just need to be educated on shield tanking? if you buff complex shield regulators to 40% youll get a shield delay of 1.3 seconds and a depleted shield delay of 4.26 seconds when using 3 complex shield regulators. thats beyond broken lmao buffing complex shield regulators to 30% would get you 1.94 seconds shield delay and a depleted shield delay of 4.84 seconds. thats the most extreme case scenario you could get using 3 complex shield regulators (its crazier on caldari logis which have 4 lows lol) idealy, most fits would only use two complex shield regulators (2.39 shield delay)