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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1421
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Posted - 2014.06.05 03:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote: And now I'll ask my Scoutly brothers to come in and fill in the rest of the explanation as I'm exhausted and need to sleep.
There's time. We'll wait. But thank you for trusting us :-)
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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1510
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Posted - 2014.06.08 16:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Appia, I can't make sense out of your spreadsheet. Is it possible for you to restructure it to match Rattati's? (i.e. Current Value, Proposed Value)
Questions: A) By what means did you come to the proposed percentage values? B) In your calculations, is the proposed efficacy bonus subject to stacking penalty? C) What is the proposed dB value of CalScout precision at 1, 2, 3 and 4 cPE? D) What is the net change (current vs proposed) to CalScout precision at 1, 2, 3 and 4 cPE? E) How many Damps will a Scout need to beat CalScout precision at 1, 2, 3 and 4 cPE?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
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1510
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Posted - 2014.06.08 17:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks for the clarification.
By my math, the Minmatar would still end up scan-bait for CalScout, though the CalScout's max scan range would be slightly less. Is this what you intended?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
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1510
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Posted - 2014.06.08 17:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Appia Nappia wrote: Appia supports and endorses the removal of Gallente Dampening and Caldari Range bonus. Instead Appia supports Caldari bonus being 4% per level to the efficacy of Precision Enhancers and Gallente having a 3% bonus per level to efficacy of Range Amplifiers
Here's how I ran your numbers:
CalScout: +20% to Precision Enhancers at Level 5 GalScout: +15% to Range Amplifiers at Level 5
So ... Cmp Range Extender progression for a non-GalScout would be (45%, 39%, 26%, 13%). Cmp Range Extender progression for a GalScout would be (60%, 52%, 34%, 17%).
I added the +15% to the module's base value; that's clearly not what you had in mind. Oopsy.
Sir Dukey wrote: does efficiency mean like precison mods will be giving like 40% at complex on a cal scout??
That's exactly what I thought at first. I think she means (20% x 1.2) vs (20% + 20%)
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1511
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Posted - 2014.06.08 17:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: I added the +15% to the module's base value; that's clearly not what you had in mind. Oopsy.
And you've found the difference between "to base value" and "to efficacy "
Right. Fixed my calculations back at the Barbershop.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
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1512
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Posted - 2014.06.08 18:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't know, Appia. That's a serious nerf to CalScouts, and it'd likely eliminate the role of CalScout as "Scout Hunter".
CalScout Scan Precision (Current : Proposed) 40.0 : 40.0 dB - Base 27.0 : 36.0 dB - Base + Max Passives 21.6 : 27.4 dB - Base + Max Passives + cPE(1) 17.9 : 21.6 dB - Base + Max Passives + cPE(2) 15.8 : 18.9 dB - Base + Max Passives + cPE(3) 14.9 : 17.4 dB - Base + Max Passives + cPE(4)
Proposed Scan Profile (All Scouts, Prototype Cloak On : Off) 31.5 : 35.0 dB - Base 28.4 : 31.5 dB - Base + Max Passives 21.2 : 23.6 dB - Base + Max Passives + Complex Damp (1) 16.7 : 18.5 dB - Base + Max Passives + Complex Damp (2) 14.0 : 15.6 dB - Base + Max Passives + Complex Damp (3) 13.3 : 14.7 dB - Base + Max Passives + Complex Damp (4)
I presently hunt other Scouts using 3 precision enhancers (16 dB). I'm not much good at killing things, but I'm good at spotting all but the most committed Scouts.
If this new model is adopted, I'll be downgraded to 19 dB. Any Scout with 2 damps and even a basic cloak can sneak right past me. And if I fully sacrifice my ck.0 to run 4 precision enhancers, any Scout running 3 damps will eat my lunch; not to mention every other combatant on the field.
So ... as a CalScout, what will I do? Will I hunt Scouts poorly or will I tank my fit and watch my back?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1512
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Posted - 2014.06.08 18:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Appia Nappia wrote:
How would this change anything, I ask this from the perspective of a Cal-Scout, You know I have a proto Cal-Scout and I've had the scanning mods all at level 5 for all of uprising and the majority of Open Beta. It would be literally the exact same module-to module as before hotfix alpha. Only Gallente would be getting a "nerf" by being brought on to the same scanning level as Amarr and Minmatar.
As as Cal Scout you would run you suit exactly the same way you did 2 weeks ago.
This is an optimization question and it comes to down to cost / benefit.
At the moment, CalScouts are a valuable asset to a squad because they can offer something others cannot. I am no slayer and I'm extremely squishy, but my squadmates are happy to have me along because of the valuable reconnaissance I can share.
What would come of my value-to-squad if my reconnaissance skills were easily substituted? What would come of my value-to-squad if my reconnaissance skills were easily countered?
My value would be diminished; no question. Optimization dictates that a Logi replace me. He can serve the squad in much greater capacity (i.e. more gear) and at much lower risk (i.e. 3x my HP). He can scan anything that I can scan, and he can do it at lower opportunity cost to the squad.
When your Field Commander asks "What do you run?" he is really asking an optimization question: "What can you do better than any other role, such that I may maximize your utility to squad and team?"
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Nos Nothi
1524
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Posted - 2014.06.08 22:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Floyd20 Azizora wrote:the problem is 3 precision enhancers is needed to catch 1 damped scouts. a scout can hide with little effect, and it takes a cal scout heavily investing to catch lightly damped scouts. @ Appia I assume you're joking, but just in case "I am no slayer" means I've forgone shields extenders and damage amps to run precision enhancers.
To answer your question "what really has changed?", the guy above has the right idea. A CalScout will need 3/4 cPEs to detect what he could've previously detected with 2 cPEs. That's a serious nerf for the CalScout.
If a CalScout is to be ineffective at hunting Scouts, then why run a CalScout? If the goal is to recon non-Scouts, wouldn't I be better off running on a GalScout?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1525
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Posted - 2014.06.08 23:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
DPLAK; let's play this through ...
Assumption: Detected Scout = Dead Scout = All Scouts Run 2 Damps = Scout Scan Profile 18 dB
Counters: GalLogi Scanner (15 db), CalScout 4 cPE (17 dB)
Decision: 4 cPE CalScout has 250 total HP; scans constantly; dies constantly; does little else. GalLogi + AS has 1000+ total HP; scans frequently; dies infrequently; does other stuff.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1526
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Posted - 2014.06.08 23:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Appia Nappia wrote:I'm joking, but not in the way you think. I mean, like, have someone good enough that doesn't need the HP mods to kill most suits. I jokingly meant that that wasn't you. You run for (A) to see people coming to make up for your lack of visual or tactical awareness, (B) you make a singular sacrifice to make one or more individuals to use dampeners and reduce their combat effectiveness. If you run 4 precision enhancers, which are all of your high slots. And I run 3 dampeners, which are all of my low lots. . . you're still the better scouts because you can put armor, repair mods, codebreakers, range amplifiers, dampeners. You use scanners to either, (A) protect you and your squad from ambushes and surprise flanking maneuvers and (B) force multiple people to sacrifice utility or survivability just to use basic tactics such as staying out of Line of Sight.
Assumption: Detected Scout = Dead Scout = All Scouts Run 2 Damps = Scout Scan Profile 18 dB
Counters: GalLogi Scanner (15 db), CalScout 4 cPE (17 dB)
Optimization: 4 cPE CalScout has 250 total HP; scans constantly; dies constantly; does little else. GalLogi + AS has 1000+ total HP; scans frequently; dies infrequently; does other stuff.
Outcome: 4 cPE (17dB) CalScout shelved; sub-optimal; why use? 3 cPE (19dB) CalScout picks up Scouts w/1 Damp; all Scouts run 2 Damps; why use? 2 cPE (22dB) CalScout picks up Scouts w/1 Damp; all Scouts run 2 Damps; why use? 1 cPE (27dB) CalScout picks up Scouts w/0 Damp; all Scouts run 2 Damps; why use?
Conclusion: If all Scouts run 2 Damps, then CalScout =/= Scout Hunter
Question: If CalScout =/= Scout Hunter, then what can it do better than other Scouts (i.e. Role)?
* Shield Tank? We don't like it when Scouts HP tank; aren't CalScouts supposed to do eWar? * Scan Non-Scouts? Why not use a GalScout, isn't its max Scan Range substantially better?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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1529
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Posted - 2014.06.09 01:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote: If I, as a minja have to run all my lows as complex damps just to be as low profile as possible, why shouldn't a cal have to make near if not the same sacrifice to pick me up on his scans?
Indeed, he should. But by Appia's proposed model, he does not:
If you run 3 complex damps, your scan profile will be 14 : 16 dB (cloak on : off) The CalScout with 4 complex precision enhancers sees 17 dB and above; he cannot scan you.
The two of you make a similar sacrifices; you've spent all 3 of your lows and he all 4 of his highs. In your example, the Minja's sacrifice pays returns; the CalScout's sacrifice does not.
What if the CalScout w/4 precision enhancers scanned at 15 dB? Such that he'd pick you up if he happened to catch you uncloaked?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
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1531
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Posted - 2014.06.09 02:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Appia Nappia wrote:Your "what if" puts us in the same spot we are in post Alpha - only the basic damp gets you under 1 complex module. Min Scouts aren't the fastest or best hackers because they don't have the option of "3 damps or 2 damps + cloak" with the latter letting them use codebreaker or biotic module Then why not ...
Holding all else constant, change Min slot layout from 3/3 to 2/4. Puzzle solved in fewer moves.
Thoughts?
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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1674
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Posted - 2014.06.11 14:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:Good job forum warriors
Keep this up and I might actually skill into a scout class soon Appia, this is how you know something's wrong.
Think about it.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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1679
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Posted - 2014.06.11 15:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: How, if at all, would this 'deadlock' be effected by the reallocation of codebreakers to high slots?
Part of what it looks like we're running into is a problem with absolute "yes/no" scanning results but since that is quite possibly fundamental to current engine mechanics what can we do to work around it and create an environment which at least mitigates those absolute results.
Thoughts? (or is my very premise somehow flawed? )
~Cross
I can think of no drawbacks. An even trade, PG-wise. Would likely help Minmatar Scout. I'm in favor.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
1735
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Posted - 2014.06.12 15:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
@ Appia
Now that Bravo's locked down, let's get back to business :-)
Here's how I see Scouts * Gal - Ghost * Cal - Recon * Min - Ninja * Amr - Biotic -- or -- Tank
Here's my Counter Proposal * Gal - Ghost (bonus to profile dampeners and cloak duration) * Cal - Recon (bonus to scan precision and range) * Min - Ninja (bonus to hacks and knives) * Amr - Biotic (bonus to all biotics) -- or -- Tank (bonus to armor penalty)
Notes * Keeps things simple (easy to understand and easy to pitch to Rattati). * Solves the CalScout / MinScout problem using your figures. * Shifts the CalScout from role of Scout Hunter to role of Recon Expert. * Permits the GalScout a meaningful bonus that will keep him fun and competitive. * Moves discussions forward on the topic of Amarr Scout.
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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