Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2200
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Posted - 2014.06.02 15:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Obscured amongst the rage and vitriol of Takahashi KashukenGÇÖs recent posts I found a concern that he expressed which I feel warrants further discussion.
CPM1 candidates, what is your experience with, or understanding of, vehicles and the issues which are important to the tankers and pilots of DUST 514?
I believe my reply elsewhere on the forums regarding the role of scouts applies here as well so I've quoted it. I run scout, just as I run vehicles, which is to say often at my own expense because I believe in spending ISK to further understand the role. I've run both off and on since closed beta, but, as noted in the quote below, I don't believe this makes me the best at either or an expert with the right to define the role, indeed I don't think any one player, or community sub-section, has that right.
Cross Atu wrote:One Eyed King wrote:What about, as a general question, what they view the role of scouts as a whole on the battlefield?
I think where people want adjustments made definitely reflects what they think the role should be. Such as those that think scouts should be recon only. Two part response to this, first is a more direct answer second part is (in my view) the more important one. 1st - My current impression is that the light suit excel at roles within eWar and/or mobility. That can be scans/intel, that can be covert assassinations and disruption, objective harassment, infiltration (such as getting behind hostile lines to deploy links et al), flanking/skirmishing either to pick of stragglers or in support of a friendly push, etc. Ideally I don't think that any role, regardless of frame type, should be only one thing on the battlefield, and in that sense I wouldn't say scouts should be only recon. To me such assessments are a bit of an oversimplification. 2nd - While I fully understand asking each candidate what their view on roles is I think there's some context that's important, that being who they (we) think defines the nature of a role. In my view I am not qualified as a single player to define the entirity of any role. Not the HAV a have a few mill into, not the scout I'm just coming back to, not the support Logi I have proto in every race. It is not the place for any single individual within the community, CPM or no, to define a role. Nor is it the place of a CPM to enforce their views on a role over that of the community. As a CPM I would state my own point of view to CCP, because calling out my own bias and understanding matters, but I would not substitute my view for that of the community regardless of whether I agree with or understand the community view being presented. My job in such cases is to inform CCP about what the community voice is and to provide them with information about where they can look for a deeper description of that trend/stance. Any less than that, it seems to me, directly defeats the purpose of having a CPM in the first place. 0.02 ISK Cross
A note, my current impression of vehicles is that they are badly broken. In PC there's essentially only one type of HAV (nearly one type of fit within that) which is viable (i.e. glass cannon rail). Outside of PC the best counter to a vehicle is a vehicle which is flawed. While I am in no way opposed to the idea that it should take teamwork to eliminate a fully crewed HAV or ADS it is not a sign of balance when a solo gunned vehicle, sometimes costing less in SP/ISK, requires another vehicle just to have a real shot at taking it off the field. We currently have proto AV which struggles heavily against militia HAVs or DS (swarms, when not used by a MinMando, are of minimal effect and even a mediocre pilot such as myself can frequently stay in a combat zone with several swarm users even while running a militia HAV). Triple Rep Mads can outright ignore a single forge gun, and a well built ADS with a decent pilot is hardly vulnerable to anything outside of a Rail tank or kamikaze DS attack. Meanwhile there are no proto HAVs in the game, despite two types having been deployed in earlier builds (which means, afaik, were they balanced to the current game state they could come back even in the current development conditions) and this distorts full balance even farther by 'flattening' the field. While most aspects have MLT, STD, ADV, PRO, Off, tank types have MLT + 1 more, how do you adequately balance a power arc of 2 vs a progression of 5? How do you provide a sense of accomplishment and development to vehicle HAV pilots who only need 1 point into their main skill to unlock all tank types currently in game. Where are the support roles within Vehicles and what is being done to make them viable? What is being done to make vehicle vs vehicle balance more rock, scissors, paper, and ells 'one fit to rule them all'? I fully support the presence of vehicle play, but just like any other play style it should not be dominant over all others. Any time one role or play style trumps all others it's a good bet balance is weak there and needs to be improved.
Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2205
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Posted - 2014.06.02 16:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Let me put more context on the question. Imagine you are sitting in a boardroom in Shanghai talking to CCP and the issue of vehicle balance and the role of HAVGÇÖs comes up. Who among the CPM 1 candidates would be able to give an quick explanation to their colleagues on the TankerGÇÖs perspective, to lay a foundation for further discussion.
An example of this type of situation happened recently in the Biomass Podcast (I think it was Episode 4) were they wanted to discuss Scouts, and Mossellia Delt, who was a guest that week, was able to give a clear explanation of the ScoutGÇÖs perspective, which layed the foundation for the rest of the discussion.
On outstanding issues you will have time to go consult with experts in the community, but not while in the middle of a conversations with CCP. If there is a role that is not represented on the CPM in some capacity, one of CCPGÇÖs bad ideas might gain too much traction before the folly in it is realized. Well we'll know before we're flying out to Shanghai and I personally believe it is incumbent upon us to actively seek out feedback from the community on the state of each role (from those who play the role, and those who play against it) prior to hitting the tarmac for the summit.
That being said, I'm not trying to dodge the thrust of your question, and what you describe is why I'm making my best effort (and have been since closed beta) to run every role in the game to the best of my ability (which is not to say my gun game always lets me run them well ). Every weapon, fit, role, hull, etc looks and feels different when you've used it than when you've had it used against you and a well rounded perspective requires a foot in both ponds.
It is my specific intention to have as much of that as possible both with regards to my own in game play time and when considering the feedback from the community.
Quote:If we find that none of the leading CPM candidates have a solid familiarity with vehicles, then there is still time for someone to attempt to address that gap. I recently took on this challenge myself. I had long participated in vehicle balance discussions as the author of the Swarm Launcher guide, but I was not sure that I was striking the right balance only having experience with one half of the debate. So I created a HAV alt, and then also skilled my second main into HAVGÇÖs. I spent about a month learning and specializing in HAVGÇÖs (cost me 15 million ISK), and playing with other tanking specialist. Eventually wrote a guide on Rail Tanks. While I donGÇÖt understand the history of HAVGÇÖs in DUST as well as the long time Tankers, I at least can speak from first hand experience when it comes to current vehicle balance. Yes, as above, I fully agree some first hand experience with anything under debate is valuable, in that sense it's fortunate that we have some candidates with high SP totals because it allows for versatility. I main support Logi, but I have several million SP into vehicles, Heavy weapons, and I'm currently running an uncloaked dragonfly with a mlt shotgun (my goal being to have a 1.0 KDR while breaking 1500 WP so I can get a better sense of play as it stands now, how harsh a world is it for a scout with less than 300 HP and no cloak?). I know Pokey has a respectable background in vehicles, while also running fits such as a PLC Commando, hacking scout et al and it is my understanding that we're not alone in this among the candidates.
I suppose end of the day what I'm saying is that I agree with the foundation of your point, diversity is valuable when discussing these things, and that I think we've a robust field of candidates for providing that.
0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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