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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2149
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Posted - 2014.05.27 03:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alright so this is a bit restrictively focused to fully apply to a sandbox game, however it's a great conceptual sign post for establishing the NPE.
- 3rd party tools
- Training Corps
- Social connections
- Trial and Error
- And yes, even the simple will to HTFU
These are all great assets to and in the sandbox, but they should supplement the NPE, pick up when it's finished, and be a gateway into the deeper desert of the sandbox. They are not substitutes for the NEP.
In a sandbox like New Eden, emergent game play can afford to be punishing (as defined in the vid) but entry into the game, the ability to learn the ropes and start to get your bearings, should not be.
Put in a more fanciful way; "one does not simply sustain player retention by spawn camping their first deployment."
What the NPE can be however, is challenging (as defined in the vid). In fact as it propels the player closer to their exit from the NPE and entrance into the sandbox it likely should be more challenging because any NPE which concludes before the new player understands that there is no 'reset button' in the sandbox will leave them upreared for what they are stepping into.
0.02 ISK
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
3471
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Posted - 2014.05.27 11:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm excited that new players will progress from fighting drones (or the academy), and then to FW, BEFORE they start playing against us vets in low sec.
It's a good thing that they at least have the experience with EVE to know how to deal with power creep. For a while there when they were introducing new weapons it seemed like they only released weapons that were better than the ones currently in the game. However with the nerf in 1.8, and the hotfix here soon to adjust a bit more, things should be relatively balanced better than they ever have been.
I just hope that the new skill system helps introduce what all there is available in the game at the beginning. I know a lot of players out of the academy that have no idea how easy it is to skill into a combat rifle...or the HMG...or a light frame. Even more don't know that there is a militia area in the marketplace where you can try out the different modules and weapons.
It was nice back when you had all 4 different types of suits as your starters so that you at least knew about them being in the game.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Hansei Kaizen
The Jackson Five
204
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Posted - 2014.05.27 12:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Very cool video there. It reminds me of all the Superhero Comics (including Dragon Ball), where the power-level gets more and more absurd to a point where it denies any logical narrative you can emotionally relate to. Wonderfully illustrated by the whole series of "Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann" (GIGAAA DRILLLL BRREEAAKEEEEEER). Whats left when you already blew up the whole universe?
I get your overall point though, and, like you can see in my signature, I approve of this message. Very much.
The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always.
NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Casual solo
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2155
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Posted - 2014.05.27 16:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Okay, first and foremost thank you both for the reply.
Secondly linking fail - I have now updated the link in the OP. I was watching a link to another vid at the time of this post (linked in candidate chat) and I grabbed the link to that vid rather than the one I actually intended to include.
The quick upshot is that the intended video is about the nature of difficulty within a game, rather than power creep (which is it's own concern for sure).
Having addressed that I can move on to more specific responses. 
I-Shayz-I - I completely agree, UI access to information being intuitive and readily available is key to the NPE, and honestly helps support game play throughout. Not knowing what your options are, or the implications thereof, leads to uninformed choices and in a persistent game that can result in frustration. The Progression system proposed by CCP Z seems to have a solid conceptual start on this, but I'm all for pushing it to higher refinement levels (it is an early stage concept at present) to ensure that the guidance it offers the NPE isn't coming at the cost of emergent game play during late game content.
re; Note, glad to be back and also glad to see you still around and participating 7162 wp is epic by the way, I think you've topped my best score (gives me something to shoot for [:D] ). Hit me up in game anytime, I'd love to run with you again.
ansei Kaizen - Your sig is spot on, and actually those three elements can be closely related.
In New Eden having social connections and an active corp is useful, but it shouldn't be required to survive and play especially in Legion (considering how CCP has presented it's intended audience here so far).
The NPE should offer options to learn and refine both game understanding and skill without making social interaction a requirement. This gives new players the opportunity to explore the game before they join someone and increased fun, and thereby retention as well.
PvE is a great asset for this, it helps casual players, it helps new players, and it supports a lot of vets when the jump on with only limited play time rather than the time needed for something like a PC battle. It's a great value added asset to the game overall and could be used within the NPE to great effect.
As per my above, the point I was making got a bit garbled in that I linked the wrong vid (oops) but I'm glad the core notion still came through.
Cheers,
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Hansei Kaizen
The Jackson Five
210
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Posted - 2014.05.27 18:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lol, well that makes a bit more sense in the context. :D
Thanx for sharing. Subscribed to the utube channel already.
The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always.
NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Casual solo
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
3485
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Posted - 2014.05.27 22:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Okay now that there's actually the right video there...
The main issue with Dust being punishing at times is the "sameness" feel you get when going up against some of the best players in the game.
For instance, the idea of the FOTM making it so that you mainly run into the same suits instead of a large variety of them. I see caldari scouts with scramblers and think "wait, why are they all suuddenly now using scramblers?" It's because so many people are running caldari scout that it is the main weapon to counter that playstyle.
but when the main counter to a playstyle is that playstyle itself...it defeats the purpose of the game's versatility.
The Scrambler Rifle is a great example of challenging gameplay in normal situations though. It works exceptionally well against shield suits, but requires you to change your strategy when against armor tanked ones. After the 1.8 update the scrambler became a very specialized weapon, but most weapons still felt like they were good against anything.
That feeling of stipping someone's shields in an instant, but having to chew through armor is what makes the scrambler really feel like it's a laser based weapon. Other weapons don't really accentuate their damage profile as much...which makes it harder to jump into a battle as the counter to a weapon you were just killed by.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Aeon Amadi
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
5810
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Posted - 2014.05.27 23:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cross Atu, you just reinforced the fact that I would -LOVE- to see you on the CPM just for posted a link to an Extra Credits video x3
As far as the NPE, I think better tutorials would go a long way but they shouldn't require players to go through the parts they already understand. Something like this:
Beginner (Absolutely no experience in FPS, MMO, or the unique aspects of the game, like fittings)
Intermediate (Experience in other FPS games, but lacks experience in MMOs/unique aspects)
Veteran (Experience in both FPS games and MMOs but could use a crash course the unique aspects)
This game has a -LOT- of complexity and depth, so wasting time telling a player how to move around and shoot the gun when it's unnecessary seems rather obtuse. Let's focus on actually educating players to make the meaningful choices and worry less about being reminded what they already know 
Useful Links
Aeon Amadi for CPM1
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Hansei Kaizen
The Jackson Five
211
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Posted - 2014.05.28 14:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Since you like Extra Credits videos, I have just stumbled over a cool one:
THIS
Its about "MMORTSs", but I think some of it applies to Dust as well. And, as you will see in the video, they already go down that path to some extend (Meta Score). Compare it to the contributions of CCP Z. So there is some nice brain food there for us gamers with a "prosuming" streak.
I have another point to get out to you guys. IMO some key parts of balancing are underrepresented in Dust as it is now. Instead of just tiericiding everything we could ask: Why are gear tiers and character power such a problem in the first place, when there are games where they are not? Take Eve, please ... *waiting for laughter to die off*
So in Eve you have all that and Ive had a waaaay easier time getting into it (5 weeks in atm). I think the reasons are:
1) There is SPACE and much of it. You can avoid the power monsters if you want, by choosing your battlefield. In Dust you are locked into comparably tiny arenas, and almost the only way of playing is killing guys (yes, even as a logi).
2) Maybe because of all the space, you have at least some time to evaluate what youre up against. In Dust youre mostly dead before you can see who or what you are fighting against.
3) If you see youre outmatched, you can put on your warpdrive and leave to save your ass and do something more worthwhile than being processed to minced meat. Its not that simple, but almost if youre careful. In Dust, if you run into a proto vet, IF you can identify him as a proto vet in a fraction of a second, you may turn around to run to be shot in the back and die. Because of the fast pace of the FPS gameplay you are more likely to shoot them in the face out of sheer reflex.
The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always.
NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Casual solo
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1050
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Posted - 2014.05.28 17:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Good discussion, guys.
Couple basic thoughts on possible NPE ideas.
FIrst, with the potential complexity and depth of Legion (and with Dust to a degree) well thought out clean tutorials are pretty critical even before you deploy for your first match. The Aura tutorials in EVE are actually not a bad way to go for a start point. The main issue is that they only scratch the surface...however they do guide you through several mechanics, fittings, and broad play options.
Strikes me that moving away from a raw WP academy graduation requirement would help...make it a bit more task based. In the merc quarters Aura could walk you through the NEOCOM, fittings, skills, basic concepts. At any time you can opt to start your ground training and in a similar fashion to EVE the missions are role specific. You select the Logistics Training option and she gives you a brief run down of what Logi's do and how the racial variants differ.
Aura sets you up in a starter logi fit and during the course of the mission you drop x number of hives or uplinks, rep some stuff, shoot some stuff, ect...you hit your task gates and then the session moves you to a either a PVE or PVP area in the logi set up and you play a match. At the end Aura recaps the key points and asks you what training session you want next (Assault, scout, heavy, ect).
Quick note here...the training also very much needs to cover the market and ways to make ISK via selling gear and salvage. Again, similar to the Business Agent training in EVE it should give you the idea that there is clearly more going on that just pew-pew!
This is pretty standard fair for most FPS games and easily administered into Legion I suspect. You can cover several facets such as squad orders, HAV / LAV / DS piloting in this manner.
I figure you could make each session between 3 to 7 minutes long and cover a ton of critical facets. You have accrue X number of training tasks complete to graduate the academy. THEN you get put in a rookie pool similar to our academy now and have a WP mark to reach...should take you about 4 or 5 matches to reach.
On to the next phase...Reinforcing the foundation of player retention by using other players.
Once you graduate the academy and rookie matches - the game needs to goto to great lengths to highlight that while solo play is viable it is highly recommended to play cooperativley and consider joining a corporation. To that end, we need a functional Corp / Alliance finder baked into Legion to help with this. In EVE you can run an in game query with the Corp finder to find out some basic things about organizations, points of contact, and information to help you determine if they are a possible fit for you.
Highlighting the aspects of the game that are only reachable through cooperative play such as PC and EVE interaction would be key at this point i think as well.
Last note and clearly not a hot priority...more of a neat to do thing...have some legit cut scenes or shorts that happen when you get in the academy, the rookie matches, and finally get released into general population. The shorts should show examples of things you can do or you are about to do in a cinematic way with some cool factor involved. Use the final cinematic to impress on the newly minted merc their place in New Eden and how they can forge their own path.
In sum...make the NPE something you can hang your hat on as a positive point of the game and spot of pride instead of having a system where we sometimes take up the mantle that you don't deserve to be in the game if you couldn't figure out how to do X on your own.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
3495
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Posted - 2014.05.28 23:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Marked for Index
Mainly because we only have one other forum thread currently about NPE here in the Legion GD (most of the NPE discussions in other threads are primarily about the skill system)
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Hansei Kaizen
The Jackson Five
213
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Posted - 2014.05.29 11:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:On to the next phase...Reinforcing the foundation of player retention by using other players.
Once you graduate the academy and rookie matches - the game needs to go to to great lengths to highlight that while solo play is viable it is highly recommended to play cooperativley and that you should consider joining a corporation. To that end, we need a functional Corp / Alliance finder baked into Legion to help with this. In EVE you can run an in game query with the Corp finder to find out some basic things about organizations, points of contact, and information to help you determine if they are a possible fit for you.
Highlighting the aspects of the game that are only reachable through cooperative play such as PC and EVE interaction would be key at this point i think as well.
My first social contacts in games are often around problem solving or just hanging around at the same place for some time, as far as I remember. I think in Dust there is the local chat and thats it while in battle you dont have time to chat or get into contact other than killing and healing. In Eve it was a bit more organic. I ran along the first story quest line and hit a little wall, the dps needed to kill a certain npc (Dagan). I reached out into chat and fleeted for the first time with some guy. We even had time to chat a little about nonsense. Again, something that wont happen in Dust outside the MQ. I hope there could be something like crossing paths with random guys in Legion and finding help or just talk BS while preparing for missions.
Nice thoughts on the tutorial side and your last point the "graduation cutscene" as well. Very neat idea.
I think a mission system can go a long way easing the NPE. Giving players a path through the universe and the possibility of stumbling over other missions (agents in eve), things to explore (cosmic signatures) and baddies to beware (cosmic anomalies). Talking about such things always makes me think of skyrim, where your curiosity is poked all the time. I am sure such things can be accomplished in Legion too, the question is how.
The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always.
NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Casual solo
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2210
|
Posted - 2014.06.02 17:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
@Jaysyn Larrisen
Completely agree with moving more towards a benchmark system and away from a raw SP or WP system.
Training should include things like market awareness and the value of general skills over specialized ones early on.
Further all training should be optional and repeatable, or at least the vast majority should.
Players who are strong-armed into running through an NPE when they're not interested will be unlikely to retain much from their passage through it. Hence a strong NPE not only provides good content, but also some choices.
After all we cannot force anyone to learn, so we have to persuade them it's worth their time.
Cheers,
Cross
Edit: Repeatable is also key, a new player shouldn't be expected to memorize all the data in a role arc within a single run through. They should have the option of going back and doing it again if they desire.
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2337
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Posted - 2014.06.14 16:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Any additional thoughts on the new NPE?
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Scheneighnay McBob
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
5270
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Posted - 2014.06.14 17:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm still in favor of a short tutorial on the very basics (controls, basic gameplay, and whatnot) before throwing new players to the sharks.
It was fun for me, and gave Dust a great, unique feel.
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