Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
684
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Posted - 2014.05.25 21:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey Rattati, first off, thanks for the visibility on the forums, and for the most part, Alpha looks to be pretty cool.
In lieu of you guys taking the time to add a small flat buff to the PR weapons, I'd like to take a minute to bring up the variants.
In the past, I've made several threads regarding the viability of the Breach AR.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1912317#post1912317 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1901046#post1901046 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146116
You said something in another thread:
CCP Rattati wrote:I personlly want the racial style weapon to be the best in class, (GAR, SCR, CR, RR) and the other variants to be not as good, pale imitations, so they are utility weapons if you like the "feel" or need to use one situationally. .
But exactly how bad should the other variants of the Assault Rifles be? Because currently they're terrible in comparison to the real deal, while the "pale imitations" of the Plasma Rifle by the other factions are in all cases just as good if not better.
Assault Rail Rifle. It's easier to fit, it deals nearly exactly the same amount of dps: 375 vs 374, it has a greater accuracy, and it has a 50% greater optimal. The only downside is the smaller mag and the higher price tag.
Assault Scrambler Rifle. Easier to fit, deals slightly more dps with a similar damage profile: 375 vs 382, it has greater accuracy, slightly better range, and has the same mag size. And even though it technically does have an overheat function, even on a non amarr suit, you can fire through an entire mag, reload, then continue into the second before it actually overheats.
Assault Combat Rifle. Easier to fit on both CPU and PG, has a higher dps, (highest dps full auto weapon in the game): 400 vs 375 and it will maintain being the highest dps even after the 2% nerf, it has a better damage profile, has slightly better range, more accurate, (indeed it's also the most accurate full auto weapon in the game) and it has a larger mag size. Only downside it the per mag damage potential is less. Luckily it also reloads faster.
Pale imitation indeed.
Now lets look at how well Gallente tech is able to imitate the others.
The BAR is an imitation of the RR. Although it starts at basic being easier to fit, it scales oddly and becomes harder to fit on CPU, the RR has 20% more dps: 361 vs 300, the RR also has a 50% greater optimal placing even out to the edge of the BARs effective still inside the RRs optimal, the RR is more accurate, and the RR has a larger mag size to boot. Oh, and the RR gets a nice sight while the BAR maintains its ironsights.
There is literally not a single combat value that the BAR has that is better than the RR, not to mention the 70% markup just to buy it.
My, (I think quite reasonable) reasonable request would be to give it back the same damage it had in 1.7. Even with the old damage values it would -still- be the least powerful dps-wise of all the full auto weapons and it would actually have a pro to work with in that it would have the highest per shot damage value of the full auto weapons. ranging from 51 to 56.1. Again I stress that even with these high values, the RPM would still hinder it the point that even the CreoDron would still only put out 374 dps which is still less than a basic assault rifle and still quite a bit less than the Kaalakiota which puts out 397.
The TAR is an imitation the ScR and arguably the best imitation Gallente has to offer. It's easier to fit, and has nearly the same per shot value, (still less). However, it is again beaten out in that the ScR is considerably more accurate, has less range, can fire 75% faster, and although it does overheat, I find myself able to fire between 12 and 14 shots even outside my Amarr suit, which is pretty much the entire clip of the TAR anyways. Not to mention that the ScR has a charge up function that deals enough damage to ohk people. Beyond that the TAR kicks like a damned mule, so even if you were to fire as fast as the gun allows, by the 3-4th shot you're off target.
Here's my request here. Instead of a 2%, I'd give it a 5% buff, buff the accuracy to the point where it's more than the Assault Rifle, (seriously, why is the DMR less accurate than its full auto brother?) but less than the ScR, and maybe just maybe give it a larger mag size. But don't touch the range, recoil, or ROF! Keep those modded controllers away from this gun! This would place it in a position where it's ever so slightly more powerful than it's cousin on a per shot value within its own optimal, but the ScR can still apply full damage further out, more accurately and you just can't beat that charge function while having a mag nearly 4 times its size.
And finally the BurstAR, the pale imitation of the CR. The CR is easier to fit on both CPU and PG, and while the damage per shot is higher for the PR, with an additional 270 RPM the CR out does the dps of the PR 474 vs 594. The CR is also more accurate. The CR has 6 less rounds per mag while the CR has a faster reload. But the real difference between the two making the Burst AR so much worse than the CR is the fact that while the Burst AR is like every other burst weapon requiring a cooldown between shots, (Burst HMG does this, Burst ScP does this, Burst AR does this) the Combat Rifle will shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger taking full advantage of the nearly 600 dps while the Burst AR can probably only realize half of its own dps after the cooldown.
The solution can go one of two ways.
Make the CR abide by the same rules all the other burst weapons and make it have a cooldown between bursts. This is my personal favorite.
Remove the cooldown altogether from the burst weapons. I fear this one though as it may make the Burst HMG too powerful.
I would appreciate feedback on my suggestions. Thanks for your time.
#SaveTheBreach
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
688
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Posted - 2014.05.26 04:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
My hypothesis about the burst AR is as follows.
Back in the day, (Tuesday in fact) the Burst AR fired 5 shots per burst and and the game timed the trigger pull reactivation delay to coincide with 5 bullets leaving the game so that when it was done you could then burst again, much like the CR today. However the weapon proved to be a bit too effective, so they reduced the bullet count per burst to 3. What I think happened here is that they removed the command to fire the last 2 bullets for the burst but didn't adjust the timer so that you can refire (at least nearly) immediately afterward.
So what we're left with is that the gun fires 3 bullets, it waits for the 2 ghost bullets basically adding an additional 60% wait time before reactivation and then you're able to fire again.
I think the best thing for the Burst AR would be to either cut out the ghost bullet timer or vastly reduce it.
As for the TAC, I think it's honestly in a weird position. The gun is right on the verge of being useful, I personally use it at least 2-3 matches every day and I generally find it's decent enough to get me a minimum 14 kills or so up to above 30 when fighting lemurs. It's a good weapon, but it's not a truly competitive weapon. And it's a fine line with CCP in making weapons competitive and not completely brokenly OP.
(Pro Tip: Glu-5 Tac with a bolt pistol on an open terrain map is an extremely dirty combination. I highly recommend it. People always underestimate the Tac when they see it being used and they tend to run straight at you. Wipe their shields instantly with the Tac and dig into their armor a little with a few shots, then switch to the bolt pistol and finish them off with 1-2 shots as they bum rush you. I feel like I need to take a shower after using this build.)
#SaveTheBreach
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
688
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Posted - 2014.05.26 05:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote: I honestly have no idea how to balance the TAC AR without returning it to its old ROF. The bust AR however is just about the only rifle i ever run with (i'm a galmando). I get your point but I just don't see it surpassing the combat rifle at its intended range, with both the pause reduction/removal + the 5% bonus daamge. The ROF of the CR alone would trump the AR considering if they have the same pause delay, the CR will inherently fire faster as its 3 rounds leave the chamber much faster.
The AR is a CQC weapon, the 5 shot burst in my opinion is what it needs to give it back that potential it now lacks. With the 5% bonus you suggest at the very most it will gain 1.00 more damage which I feel is not enough to compensate for the ROF. I could be wrong however, if the numbers are off go ahead and call me on it as i'm not looking up the stats of the AR.
The 5% bonus I would only want applied to the Tac, although I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a better buff for the Burst AR as well, and perhaps raise the advanced tier to be in line with the proto in terms of ROF at 937.
The Tac can -not- have its ROF or its recoil adjusted, those are the only things keeping it from getting dominated by modded controllers. Make it the highest alpha light weapon single fire weapon bar the shotgun and charged ScR and call it good imo.
The ideology I hold for balancing weapons is make them all have at least one facet they're better than their cousins in.
In my perfect world, the weapons look like this.
Do I want the Tac for it's alpha power per shot and no overheat threat, or do I want the ScR which hits for slightly less per shot but gives me the ability to charge and risk overheating at slightly longer range?
Do I want the AR for a high ROF weapon in close to mid range range, or the ARR which deals decent damage at longer range with a slightly slower ROF and high per shot value for lower dps while being accurate, or do I want the AScR for near AR damage at long range with a high ROF but held back by its overheat potential and its hard to control kick, or do I want the ACR for its super high ROF and high dps but is hindered by a smaller magazine and low per shot value?
Do I want the Breach AR for its low ROF but very high per shot value and smaller clip, or do I want the RR for a low ROF weapon that hits at longer range with a larger magazine but with a lower per shot value and lower dps?
Do I want the Burst AR for its high per burst damage value, or do I want the CR for its higher ROF allowing for more bursts to be put downrange faster with a lower damage value per burst?
That's how I'd do it at least. Give every gun something it excels at better than all the others, and give them aspects that others do better at themselves. Provide real variety and you'll get better balance.
#SaveTheBreach
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Daddrobit
You Can Call Me Daddy
689
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Posted - 2014.05.26 07:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
I only give the Tac AR alpha damage because like Rattati said, it's only a pale imitation. And it's not only that, but the ScR can and will overheat inducing potentially fatal damage on yourself especially when already in a firefight as well as locking up the weapon preventing you from switching to a sidearm.
Sure the Tac has a small mag size, slower ROF, and no charge function, but when you run out of bullets with the Tac, you can always switch to your sidearm and finish the job. But when you go through even a bit less than the mag of the Tac with the ScR, you screw yourself completely. There's a lot of Risk/Reward going on with the ScR, not the same can be said with the Tac.
And you can't be too frivolous with alpha damage either, (much as I may wish for it myself) because of how the game scales damage so much. Say we jacked the proto to 80 per shot, throw that bad boy on a proto Galmando with a complex damage mod and suddenly you're doing 91-92 base damage. Then add on proficiency V and you get around 114 damage per shot vs shields. After completely decimating everyone's shields, (which we're going to see more of I think with the plate nerfs) you'll still be putting out 82-ish damage vs armor, still a very formidable amount of damage indeed. Damage that the ScR can't even come near to vs armor with it's extreme ineffectiveness vs armor.
And you have to remember that this damage is incoming from 60 meters out at a potential 6 shots per second if you could somehow handle the recoil.
The thing about balancing alpha is that you have to make it appealing, but you can't make it so powerful that it can just brute force through everything, especially when that alpha is hitting you from a great distance.
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