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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1553
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Posted - 2014.05.26 04:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since you put a lot of thought into this, I'll give a real response. Sniping with your squad is rewarded less that hiding on a hill and getting easy kills due to the relative safety afforded by the redline. If you want to make sniping a worthwhile role cut the optimal down to 80, the effective down to 175 and the absolute to 300. This makes the sniper rifle a "tactical marksman" role, requiring you to be a part of the fight in order to get kills.
Once the range is fixed, you can buff the damage or RoF drastically to make up for the lack of redline safety.
Tactical marksman can then be used for ranged point defense or for clearing targets on an objective while the squad moves in, giving them an actual use on the field of battle.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1556
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Posted - 2014.05.26 18:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:DJINN GITAXIS wrote:
-snip-
I doubt you even snipe.
-snip-
^^ This whole thing alludes to quick scoping ^^ and that's complete garbage best left in Call of Duty for crappy players.
Just stop.
Baal made his points without attacking you, Gitaxis. Why can't you do the same? @Baal - I don't think an optimal of 80m is remotely reasonable. The sniper needs a lot more range than that - it's outranged by a laser rifle at that point. An optimal of 600m just encourages redline sniping but if the optimal -and- absolute were 300m that would start to force people out of the redline. At that point, you can start buffing the sniper without needing to worry about the problem of redline sniper spam. 80m is far too short though. Far, far too short.
@Arkena: Sorry for the wonky numbers, was posting while half asleep, pulled the numbers outta my ass and forgot to say they were an vague example. 80m is far too short a range, but having a single range being your absolute, effective and optimal discourages you from trying to chip health off of a target despite knowing you cannot do full damage (which is a large part of strategy while using almost all weapons), so I am somewhat wary of taking that approach. Making the call of whether or not to tag someone who you cannot do full damage to is a large part of this game's gunplay.
"Fully awake Baal" suggests the actual numbers should sit in the general area of 250/300/350. Doing full damage at 250m still allows you to out range any rifle while not allowing you the ability to hide in the redline and farm kills unless you are already redlined. I went into a match earlier with a friend and marked out on Manus Peak how close you'd have to be to hit A with your absolute range (350m) and had my friend help me mark the 300 and 250 meter marks as well. I represented them as closely as I could using Paint.Net (it loads way faster on my crappy old laptop than GIMP).
Here is approximately what my range suggestions look like.
These ranges force you to go into the combat zone where you can be struck back at if you wish to get kills. It makes snipers need to rely on their squad for support, as any role should. Logi's are supposed to rely on the squad for protection, heavies are supposed to rely on the squad for ammo and repairs, etc.
@ DJINN GIT: Being flanked is a part of the gameplay and requires you to have situational awareness. The Caldari scout would make a spectacular sniper suit for those who have terrible situational awareness due to it's passive scanning abilities, but regardless having no situational awareness is no one's fault but your own.
As for using a worse rifle, you obviously did not read my whole post or you would have seen that I also said drastically buff the RoF or damage to compensate for the lost range.
When someone closes the distance on you when you are sniping on a hill, what do you do? Oh, right, sidearm. Can you guess what you do when someone closes the distance on you when you snipe while running the field? Oh, right...
As for quick scoping, if it were a viable tactic in Dust it would be done all the time. I've had plenty of people try to quick scope me in this game, and the only one to ever pull it off was Sleepy Zan back in Codex (quick scoped me out of a LAV no less while I was trying to run him over  ). Speaking of Sleepy Zan, this is the style of sniping he does all the time (or did, not sure if he still plays). He runs with his squad and when he spots a target he drops to one knee, pulls up his scope, takes about a second or so to aim, then fires. I fully agree that quick scoping has no place in Dust, but this in no way alludes to quick scoping. Grab a tactical sniper some time, build an assault loadout and try this method out. It's far more challenging but a lot more fun than hiding on a hill.
And lastly, to your remarks about me not being a sniper, I've sniped off and on in this game for 2 years as of this July which is a HELL of a lot longer than I've seen you around buddy.  Having DJINN in your name doesn't magically grant the in-game experience of DJINN Punisher.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1556
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Posted - 2014.05.26 21:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
DJINN GITAXIS wrote:@Baal
This is an alt account. I was in open beta. My main has 40,000 kills from sniping alone. I doubt if anyone rivals that. (figure it out yet?)
- Quick scoping gets done almost never. It's not a thing. Do not act like it sometimes happens. We're talking like 0.001 % of all kills. Terribly ineffective. Sleepy Zan was quick scoping while it was slightly more viable. It wouldn't work in today's environment.
(more prototype suits, stacked health, cloaked scouts, ultra heavies) Situational awareness can't include knowledge of cloaked scouts, that comes from a distance. They're too fast and invisible.
I heard you about the rate of fire. You're asking for a hybrid between a Rail Rifle and a Sniper Rifle. Nobody is asking for that. If you're going to include a sniper rifle in the game at all it needs to kill effectively from range, and head shots need to be rewarded heavily.
@Michael Arck
Moving? No. There's nothing tactical about that. You're calling out your position by doing so. It's a lot easier to catch the eye of a counter sniper if you keep trying to find the "best spot" for the moment. There's a process I go through when choosing where to snipe on any given map. It includes examining the enemy team and the map. Thinking about where I'm likely to get the most kills. Keeping safe has little to do with it. I just bring a fit that's appropriate to the location. (Commando) That and the default CCP sniper suit is very slow on foot.
As a sniper who runs with your squad your situational awareness is just as good as everyone else in your squad. You are thinking about sniping as sitting on a hill still. In this method you either scope and shoot while standing, compensating for the sway manually, or you drop and shoot, cancelling the majority of the initial sway and having none at all once properly centered. It's only slightly different than the situational awareness afforded by ACOG weapons in Dust, and only because of the high level zoom on the scope.
And I'm not looking for a rail rifle hybrid, I also said "or damage increase". If you are going to be vulnerable to attack, you need a viable weapon to deal with your weapon's intended targets. Lower damage isn't as big a deal when retaliation is difficult, but when retaliation is almost guaranteed you need more DPS. This is most easily done by increasing damage or RoF. I wasn't saying this is all that should be done, but it would be a good start to making sniper rifles both good and useful to the whole team. I would personally lean more in favor of a damage increase (~325 STD, ~400 PRO) with SCP level headshot damage (I definitely agree that headshots need to be greatly rewarded, but not to someone hiding out in the hills). This would make the SR a skill weapon with great rewards (headshots from a PRO OHKing virtually any heavy) instead of a ranged patience weapon for people who want to shoot but not be shot at.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying snipers are always useless kill stealers. Nor am I saying all snipers sit in the redline farming kills for the sake of farming kills. When there are forge guns camping a tower or swarms of uplinks covering the roof over a vital point, snipers are very useful. But in the majority of cases, they simply sit on the sidelines picking at the enemy, knocking off useless stragglers and noobs. There are a few who know how to play their role properly, but they are a very tiny portion of the snipers out there.
The Caldari Commando is a perfect example of a good sniper fit for this role. You can run 2 light weapons, have a fair amount of health, an equipment slot, and get a bonus for your SR at the same time. You watch your squad's back and they watch yours. This is a squad based game, there is no reason that snipers should be able to kill from the safety of the redline unless they are stuck in it. They need to run with their pack, taking high ground, providing cover for the squad as they move, etc, etc, etc.
I only mentioned quick scoping because you brought it up. I've never been a quickscoper in any game, it seemed too cheap of a tactic (<---same reason I refused to spec Caldari or Gallente scouts) so I never put in the time to learn how. All I know about it as far as Dust is concerned is what Sleepy told me about it back when I squadded with him to TK blueberries with LAV's January of last year (I miss those days....). If you say it is impossible now, I believe you as I haven't been quick scoped other than by Sleepy.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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