bogeyman m
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
232
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Posted - 2014.06.06 18:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:TLDR Assaults are still underperforming. Even if the Alpha Scout changes work as intended, the Logi-slayer will re-emerge as the Assult of choice. Assaults need a buff.
The reason the Gal scout has been abused, in addition to the issues with de-cloaking and armor plate, is that Assault are under performing. So players looking for a slayer fit migrated from the Logi slayer to the Scout after 1.8 to be more effective slayers, because the Assault has been unable to compete with either.
The Logi-Slayer is still alive and well, and will be back once the Scout Alpha fixes are in, assuming they work as intended. The Assault will still be a worse option than the Logi unless some changes are made in the medium balance, to make the Assault viable in it's role.
Medium/Light/Heavy balance: The following suggestion is based on the concept that the core strength of the Medium class should be versatility.
Lights are fast and evasive, but have low EHP and limited PG/CPU. Heavies are tough and dangerous, but slow have limited slots and equipment. Mediums should be versatile and able to cover a number of roles as dictated by the battle. Not as well as suits specialised for that purpose, but at least well enough to make them viable in those roles, in addition to being able to shine in either support (Logi) or attack (Assault).
Assault/Logi balance: Further to the balance between suit classes, is the balance within the Medium class itself. To fill their roles as the most versatile frames, each of the Assault and Logi need to bring something different to the table. Logi's should allow for the greatest versatility of equipment modules, while Assault should have the greatest versatility in dropsuit modules. This should allow both of them to shine in their areas of expertise, while still being versatile enough to fill multiple other roles, as needed.
As it currently stands, Logi's beat out the Assault as they are the most versatile in both, being able to fit the more equipment, as well as the greatest number of modules, while having more PG and CPU.
To fix this, I'd propose the following three changes:
1. Slot layout change:
Current Assault: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/2_3/2_4/3 Gal_1/3_2/3_3/4 Min_3/1_3/2_5/2 Am_2/1_2/2_3/3
Proposed Assault: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_4/2_5/2_5/3 Gal_2/4_2/5_3/5 Min_3/3_4/3_4/4 Am_3/3_3/4_3/5
Current Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_2/1_3/2_5/4 Gal_0/2_2/3_3/5 Min_2/2_3/3_4/4 Am_2/2_3/3_3/4
Proposed Logi: ___ Std_Ad_Pro Cal_3/2_4/3_4/3 Gal_2/3_2/4_3/4 Min_3/2_3/3_4/3 Am_2/3_3/3_3/4
With Assaults having 6 modules slots at standard, 7 at advanced and 8 at proto. Logi's move to 5 at standard, 6 at advanced, and 7 at proto. Logi's maintain a significant advantage through the number of equipment slots, but will no longer be able to out tank or out fit Assaults when it comes to modules, making Assault viable as Assaults.
I understand this is a nerf to Logi's and I apologise to Logi players, but at the moment each racial variant outshines it's Assault counterpart at proto by at least 1 module slot, in addition to at least two equipment slots. The module slot allows the Logi to compensate for the greater base EHP of the Assault, and the equipment allows them to bring more to the table. There is no way for the Assault to compete.
2. PG/CPU normalisation
With the removal of slots from the Logi and addition of slots to the Assault, PG and CPU will need to be reconsidered and normalised for both. CCP Rattati has already mentioned that PG/CPU will need to be reworked to force players to make choices on their fit.
3. Equipment slot changes
If the Cal Logi loses the additional module slots to balance against the others, then they will need to be upped to 4 equipment slots. Alternately, to maintain diversity, increase the Cal logi module count to 5/3 at proto and maintain the three equipment slots. Leave the Amarr at 3 equipment slots and maintain their sidearm. It's a good point of differentiation and makes for an intersting suit.
4. Bonus change - Grenade slot
As an option, and to provide a real point of differentiation for the Assault, give them a secondary grenade slot.
With the changes to grenade numbers and (upcoming) change to damage, granade spam should no longer be a major issue. The ability to carry two different types of grenade simultaniously makes the Assault much more versatile on the battlefield, and able to resopnd to different threats effectively on the fly (shield tanks, armor tanks, and/or AV).
To ensure that it doesn't reintroduce grenade spam, the implementation should be made so that changing between grenades requires the use of the equipment wheel, and that throwing all of your currently equiped grenades does not result in a change to the other set. That way the player will need to manual change between sets to use them.
Thanks for your time, comments and suggestions welcome.
o7
Not interested in any suggestions that nerf Logis from being Logis (in support/medic roles). Taking away slots is not a reasonable solution. Additionally, Amarrian Logis should always have a slot penalty to balance their privilege of carrying a sidearm.
If the concern regarding Logis is their potential for Slayer-type exploits, then simple make the Assault suit more compelling... Maybe by focusing more on weapon nerfs/buffs.
Duct tape 2.0 - Have WD-40; will travel.
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bogeyman m
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
232
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Posted - 2014.06.06 18:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Brokerib wrote:This is probably my scout bias showing here (most of my fits are sub 300 EHP), but how much health does a Logi need to be viable in combat? Because what we're talking about with the modules is really health.
Using the module layout I've suggested, along with the current modules and base values, you end up with the following (using the Min and Amarr as examples of the lowest and highest possible, and assuming proto skills on all):
Min Logi 4 x complex shield extenders 3 x complex plate = 951
Ama Logi 3 x complex shield extenders 4 x complex plate = 1075
Now compare with the Assaults:
Min Ass 4 x complex shield extender 4 x complex plate = 1128
Ama 3 x complex shield extenders 5 x complex plate = 1271
Less than 200EHP difference between the racial Assault and Logi. And that's assuming everyone is brick tanking. At that level of EHP, I would have thought a Logi would be quite survivable in combat?
Now how about if the Assaults aren't brick tanking, and decide to fit something additional (one high/one low)? The Assault fit looks like:
Min Ass 3 x complex shield extenders 3 x complex plate = 935
Ama Ass 2 x complex shield extenders 4 x complex plate = 1078
Which is pretty much bang on with a fully bricked Logi. An Assault gets to fit one high and one low slot, and still run the same EHP as a logi of the same archtype, while the Logi gets to run 3 more equipment and one less weapon (Min) or two more equipment (Amarr). Does that seem unreasonable from a balance perspective, within the scope of the current modules and base stats?
I understand I'm not accounting for the rest of the base stats (speed/regen/precision/etc), but from a straight fitting perspective it makes sense to me.
Those fitting numbers don't happen for Logis if they have advanced/proto equipment in all their slots...
Duct tape 2.0 - Have WD-40; will travel.
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