Don't focus on racially unique variants, just focus on the module.

If you insist on making LAV' the casevac vehicles of the game you need to give them the option of responding quickly, reduce EHP (you don't need as much if you are triage, what you need is reps) increase speed and repping.

For vehicles, make them concentrated active module, single target at a time.
For Infamtry make them AOE and give both active/passive variants.
For balance this EHP must come from somewhere, so you vehicle health is reduced by 50% of the EHP amount you heal, capped at 30% EHP remaing.

With MAVs I like your fortication idea, expand it a little, since MAVs will likely have more EHP tha tanks, give them a deployable shield wall for one side and decreases damage passing through (from enemy side) by 40% then give enough room for infantry to shoot out in this direction.

When it comes dropships they should be the only vehicle with a cloak, but they give up any turrets to do so.

One thing from EVE that absolutely should be in Legion is the Low-Med-High slot setup for vehicles.

Cloaks, Remote Reps, etc should all be high slot modules that take the place of turrets and do not compete with EHP/utility modules that belong in the Med or Low power slots.

That solves a lot of the things you are bringing up here. Could put mCRUs in the high slot as well.

EVE has Role Bonuses for *Can fit "xxxxxxx" - which would work for this as well.

tbh im fine with infantry/dropsuits being very simple for new players or whatever but vehicles should be a copy/paste from EVE. We need to bring absolutely as many concepts from EVE to vehicles in Legion as possible.

lows, mids, and highs don't work in dust due to weapons, turrets, and grenades having different sizes (yes, thought of this too when I realized that this would also be a problem).

So I do agree... some vehicle fitting will be contained by the graphics model. Not putting a large turret on an HAV would look silly. However, you can get a little creative about it.

Almost none of the vehicles are constrained by this except those that fit large turrets. So large turrets arent a high slot item then, they are just large turrets and have a required fitting slot for it. But things that aren't required like small turrets could be high slot modules.

This would give us the freedom to do some really interesting things I feel like and allow modules that dont belong in low or med slots a place to be.

We could implement cap warfare, mCRUs, possibly move things like active scanners to high slots (if it makes sense).

Warfare links possibly?

Mobile depots that you could activate for a short period to help infantry swap their loadout and reload?

Seige modules? Bastion modules? Triage modules?

Some of these may not be high slot modules in EVE but there would be more room for flexibility and creative builds is all im really getting at. It would also help with the current situation where its "Do I lose tank and fit small turrets or just go all out solo, remove the small turrets and bump that adv modules to complex?" which is a poor place to be imo, cause it hasnt really been much of a choice.

1: Hardpoints could solve the 3 large turrets part, even then... what I discussed wouldnt make that possible anyways if large turrets had their own slot. Medium turrets, based on vehicle design, could go either way as needed.

Equipment slots could do the same thing, but you make the system a bit more restrictive in doing so. Essentially splitting turrets and 'equipment' modules completely... Using a high slot system would give it more of a utility vs damage kind of theme which is a little more eve-like in ways. You can choose between a small turret and any sort of high slot module instead of 'this vehicle fits x turrets and y equipment' which could lead to a logi suit dilemma where they have so much utility.

Either way could work, but I don't believe we should just make vehicles simple for the sake of it. I'm 100% for a simplified infantry system, as that is the introduction for new players. Vehicles, on the other hand, can be as complicated as we want... they are completely optional for people to use/spec into.

2: Cap could make sense for vehicles, I've seen quite a few good posts on it. We can just agree to disagree on that.

3-5: Cant tell if you agree or disagree with my post so I'm just gonna leave it alone.

You'd get smashed to hell if you are triage (rule number 1 in combat: take out the medic first). That's why it gets eHP. Also, if you're nowhere near the people you're supposed to be supporting, then you're doing it wrong. This isn't some type of "I speed around the map healing everything I see" type of thing. You stick with a squad or two, and heal them, and when they don't need you anymore, you go onto the next group that might need you.

that second part made no sense, and after talking to several people, we decided that the infantry reps would be best as a turret (AOE bubble was considered to be OP).

I highly doubt that they will. Why? Humm..

HAV. heavy attack vehicle......... yea, I doubt it highly.

Anyways, I changed my mind on that one; instead of it changing into a fortress, it should deploy barricades, but the shield stays. the fortress idea would go to the Command MAV (yes, I expect there to be a command MAV). As for your wall idea, that would be going through the shield, which wouldn't do much of anything to the hull (or anyone inside the shield) as they would be behind the barricades. Well, unless of course someone got inside the shield, or destroyed the barricades from the outside............. okay I think I get it. I can go with that.

Logi's don't cloak, so that made no sense. If the Force Recon DS came, I'd say okay, but even then, you have the Scout LAV and the BO HAV (hope both of those comes), and both of those imo should be able to cloak.

Plus RDV's exist..............

Depends, afterall that is what the reps are for. Also whjch of the 4 logis has the rep tool bonus? The one with the lowest EHP.

Personally if the infantry version ISN'T AOE I don't see why people would bother. The positives of the turret wouldn't outweigh thd tool all that much, not to mention you can kill the gunner, well rep gunner, with relative ease.

Transport class vehicles jn mist games typically have higher tank, because they hold more people, why do you think dropships are used for actual transportmso rarely. The Heavy part of HEAVY ATTACK VEHICLE, typically applies tomthe vehicles weight and/or armament, not it's protection.

As for cloaking, if it has a weapon on it you should not cloak it as a vehicle. The reason I suggested cloaking for a dropship is to allow transport across enemy lines, there is little advantage to cloaking a LAV, and as I said a cloaked HAV would be as OP as hell.

1: Winmatar got the rep bonus because the rep tool is a Winmatar made equipment (notice how that's how it worked out for every single equipment and suit pairing), so invalid. Also, people would bother. If you don't know, turrets gets a 25 or 50% damage reduction, so why would they bother to use a turret? They won't (they'll take something that's actually useful). Also, like I said, Everyone I talked to saw that as being OP, and said that they would rather it be a turret. As for the killing of the turret gunner, that needs reworking anyways. Hell, the entire LAV model needs to be reworked.

2: In most games. This doesn't apply here. Here, if you go up a hull size, you get more eHP, and larger weapons (applies to both EVE and dust. See: hull and frame sizes). So again, invalid.

3: And your reasoning for it being like that is? I want you to explain why that is. Also, I want you to explain why you think that for both of those.

Rep toolmis multi racial. (Its in the description)
What's the point of using a vehicle tp distribute healing to one person at a time? Especially when a logi can do the same using 1 person, follow his target into infantry only areas, is harder to hit and is all round more sensible choice. The only way a single beam from a vehicle would be useful is if it repped so fast the guy could heal while under squad fire, at which point it's pretty damn OP.
AOE also encourages more teamwork from larger groups and allows you to maintain the same stats as infamtry tools but be more effective, doesn't require a gunner (can be used for defence), doesn't require aiming (difficult enough with a weapon let alone a heal turret!), more user friendly.

True but in EvE you can't take cover like we can, you also can't shoot back at hull sizes a certain number below yours, there also no transport variant (carriers aren't the same), transports either typically have a high tank, or high manoeuvrability so that they can survive long enough to at least let the cargo escape. I meam come on, you really think it's fair 2 shot an APC with 7 guys in with a rail tank? Seriously? Or is this another case of tanker superiority gone wrong?

With current state of shotgun scouts, I shouldn't need to explain why a rail gun tank with a cloak is a bad idea. LAV's have little use, at all. At most they are rapid transport and killer taxi. Once again I don't think I need to explain why a killer taxi with a cloak (which would make it immune to lock on weaponry) is a bad idea. Making LDS cloakable allows them to complete a unique role, with litttle repercussions or ways of jurt rigging for killing.

It's good that we're all discussing this.

Considering that an open world is likely to be implemented with Legion (if it gets the green light), vehicles will play a very important role in mobility, supply chains, offense and defense.

1: No, it's not. Most Winmatar things use things from other races. IT's still a WInmatar thing. And if that's the case, explain why it's only in the Winmatar FW store then.

The special edition could only do one at a time as well, and couldn't relock onto someone. Plus, it heals ridiculously fast. Have you never seen that thing in action? IT being a bubble would be insane.

1: If you're going so slow it's sad (because the triage module would either stop you dead, or slow you down by a **** ton), then you'd think that you'd need a bit of extra tank, especially since you're in a LAV. Also, that's completely false. That only works for XL turrets gainst sub caps, and I've killed moving frigs with a BS before. Plus, there's always drones.

As far as the MAV goes, I'm not saying that it would have near LAV eHP, but it will sure as hell be at near LAV speed. (note: I don't use rails, as I'm mostly Gal only)

3: First off, other than the cloak staying on and still being able to shoot, there's nothing wrong with it. Grow a pair of eyes (and then even the first problem will go away). Second off, Know how cloaking in EVE works? Yea, that's how it should work for vehicles. Thirdly, this and this says that there's roles for other vehicles with cloaks. As for the LDS getting cloak bonuses, as I've already said, logi's don't cloak, and the Force Recon DS would be much better getting them.

Because they don't have any other form or equipment (except RE), you will notice the tools don't have the Minmatar naming conventions.

So like I said then kt heals so ridiculously fast its OP, you have an AOE you give a rep rate 10% lower than the infantry version, but allow it to effect multiple people simultaneously, I have never seen a vehicle rep infantry in this game, even having talked to plenty of people myself they didn't see the benifits. Even when it only required 1 person.

Your suggestion requires
An expensive LLAV, an expensive Healing Turret and 2 people, all to mega heal one guy. It's pointless when Imcan simply equip a rep tool into that equipmemt slot I wasn't using and achieve the same effect ANYWHERE. What benifits do you see to this healing turret over conventional infamtry healing, please tell me?

Yes if you were designed to be escprting infantry it would make sense to have more tank, Ill give you that one. Though you can just give it enough fitting to equip the heavier modules.

It would have to have very near HAV to even be remotly fair, if you have ever fended of JLAV bombers who were clever enough to stick the RE to the side, you know how weak LAV's are MAV's need to be on many orders higher than that to be fair. Transport Orientated dropships could do with a buff to EHP as well.

Obviously I do have to explain this to you then, a cloak is a device that is designed to make you hard to see, just like camouflage does it breaks up your silhouette so much that unless you are specifically looking for the signs it is difficult to see. In some cases people's brains will actually filter out the cloaked entity as an anomaly.

JUST TO RECAP A CLOAK IS HARD TO SEE BY MOST PEOPLE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT IS MEANT TO DO. If you have no trouble seeing cloaked entities moving through a battlefield full of explosions, gunfire, vehicles and Infantry, please donate your body to science upon death, the human race would benifit from examing why your brain has sacrificed intelligence for seeing faint blue lines.

Secondly CCP had orginally planned to allow users to fire under the cloak, but doing so would give a penalty amd cause your cloak to deactivate soon after, this would have been acceptable, the current version is unintended and requires fixing. Imalso shouldn't have to reference NS squads are compiled entirely of scouts with cloaks, or that cloaked scouts are the fitting of the month, with scouts suits taking and first and second spots for the most bought suits.

Is the point clear enough now? Or do I have to give you scenarios of cloaked killer taxis, running over everyone?
Do I need to point out how bad rails are without a cloak, or how bad blasters will be when you don't realise someone is going to shoot before they start doing so?

Once again making vehicle cloaking work like EvE is a terrible idea, where exactly domyou intend to go with this cloak? Your on a battlefield filled with people, vehicles and installations, there will be hardly anyuse for it. Vehicle cloaks should work the same way infantry cloaks do, you just don't allow weapon carrying vehicles to use them.

As for which dropship gets them I don't really give a monkeys, but consodering the 'force recon' DS will lkkely be a T3 logistics (since that is the doctrine being followed with the suits) I'm don't see a problem with giving the bonus at T2 instead. Also I see little benifit to the lgoistics over the T3 at all, an active CRU sounds rather pointless and a flying medic who can't stop moving is just as useless.

1: Core and SIx Kin, and I think the B in the adv ones is Boundless. Even looking at the repair tool just screams Winmatar. Also, like I said, The races have whatever they made in their LP stores. That's not even arguable, it's the truth.

2: Even 10% isn't good enough to make it not insanely OP. Have you not used that thing? I healed tanked heavies in like 2-3 cycles. and they could be shot at by 2-3 guys and tank their shots. As for your questions of how it would be better

a- a lot faster to heal
b- easier to manage people, as you're higher than them, and in a turret
c- more protection (small turrets need face plates)

3: I think your problem with it currently is the fact that rails and missiles are OP as hell (blasters actually has a normal ttk , slightly high with the damage mods, which needs to go). Also yes, I've tried the whole JLAV thing, and yes, I found it to be ridiculously easy to pull it off. No contest tbh.

4: Again, like I said, you know how cloaks work in EVE? That's how they should work for vehicles.

5: Force Recon has nothing to do with logistics, nor is it a T III craft. T III doesn't even exist yet, so wtf are you talking about? Also, again, everyone that I talked to actually likes the active CRU, like a lot. Are you just trying to argue with me?

6: Learn to hover.

And the Lai Dai?
Ok so you are saying that an infantry rep tool is powerful, and you want to stick a more powerful version on a car, what good is it, if an infantry repair tool already heals fast enough, why waist a LAV an extra person and turret to achieve the same thing which can't even be used inside a building? It's redundant, literally pointless. You can change the values around as much as you like on the AOE, but if it doesn't allow you to heal multiple people simultaneously, the amount you have to give up is not worth the three benefits you gave.
Your vehicle would be better served killing the people shooting at the heavy, than healing the heavy to kill the people shooting the heavy.

Are you saying it easy to commit a JLAV or blow up a JLAV? JLAVs are only 'easy' to pull off if the tanker doesn't pay attention/stays still for long periods of time. If a MAV is going to be viable, it needs to be able to tank damage at least as well as a HAV, that's 3 shots of rail. Any less and it's a steel coffin, just like the transport drop ships already are.

So if the cloak automatically deactivates when you get near someone, what is the point in the cloak in the first place, it would if there is as much cover and debris around as people are suggesting, your either close enough for it to be deactivated, or far enough for them to not be able to do anything about it. If you then factor in flying entities like Heavy Gunships, Dropships and whatevger else if flying around up there, your not gonna be cloaked long enough for it to be of any use anyway. If it works like infantry ones, it will be OP on anything with a weapon, if it works like EvE it will be useless (because Space Tactics don't work on the ground). Hence dropships only.

No WTF are you talking about, so far the progression trees still fit the same pattern as DUST did.
Medium -> Assault/Logi etc.

As in there will likely only be 2 variations on suits and vehicles of the same size (AT THE MOMENT), there is no guarantee that this 'Force Recon' dropship will ever exsist, do you understand? fWith what 's progression tree's after you choose your faction you get a further set of specializations (Spec Ops Caldari Assault), it would be logical to assume that vehicle will follow a similar progression tree, hence " 'Force Recon' Caldari Logistics Dropship ", ok, right so once again it doesn't matter which f*cking dropship gets the bloody cloak as long it doesn't have any weapons.

I don't who you are talking to about these Active CRU's but they sound pointless UNLESS they include an average MCRU as standard and you periodically sacrifice general spawn time for a 10-20 seconds of overdrive.

I can hover perfectly well thank you, but if you were a decent pilot you would know that to hover is to die, because dropships are so frikkin flimsy!

Finally no I'm not purposely arguing with you, you just have a lot of points that need to be argued about!

1: the nanohive and SMG has the exact same thing (Gal manufacturer for nanohive, and Cal manufacturer for Cal), so again invalid.

2: It would have to be really low for it to be balanced (in the 40's or 50', probably lower), and last a short time. Also, your opinion against like 40 other people.

3: to commit a JLAV is ridiculously easy. dodging HAV's shots are quite easy, and hitting one is even easier. They shouldn't exist tbh. Even if they know you're there and is moving, they'll still die, unless you're a complete idiot.

4: Minus that little part about the distance decloak (forgot about that part, I rarely use cloaks in EVE).Also, it should only be used on special forces vehicles (so BO AHV, SLAV, FRDS, etc.).

5: I don't think you understand how tech levels work

6: With infantry there is currently only 2 per frame size. All the vehicles officially thought of could easily have three T II versions. actually, the only one that does not currently is the LAV.

7: Are you referring to Z's ****** system? lol. Also, confirmed that you don't understand what tech levels are.

8: I'm fine with the FRDS not getting any turrets. Already stated that.

9: So near instant spawn time is not good enough to you? Man your ideas on balance are odd.

10: I am a decent pilot, pretty good one actually. When I played dust seriously I would get hired all the time for corp battles and early PC. Maybe if you learned to dodge shots it wouldn't be a problem.

1: Yh ok, Ill concide, but ask why didn't they give the bonus to RE? Would have been much more welcome to AVers

2: Fine make it as low as you like, can you name these 40 people? Have you actually presented them with AOE variants as well? Also why you no longer actually arguing against it? I jist don't see the point of 3 people and a LLAV being used for the same thing as a LAV and 2 people or a repair tool and 2 people. It's incredibly wasteful way of doing things.

3. Then I must be somekind of Superman, Ive encountered and commited JLAVs I find them incredibly easy to disarm (but then again I use a rail, 2 shots)

4. That little part? That's the entire point that differentiates (or was meant to) EvE cloaks from DUST cloaks. I assume you are referring to the mechanic where decloaking ships are easier tomspot temporarily, or fire weapons for a short time? In which case, with a bit of moderation it MAY be possible. Though I think Killer Taxis will abuse the hell out of it.

5. Im perfectly aware of how tech levels work, I meant meta levels and variations.

6. This is only if you are counting the Basic HAV in which case you must also account for medium, assault and logistics dropsuits meaning you still only get 2 'specialisations'

7. See 5, I do not like it either but I don't think Z is gonna give the players any choice in the matter.

8. If you ever get one

9. I don't see its day to day use, I assume these active CRU's are for the benifit of squads so that they can rapid deploy, but since this requires the squad being dead chances are they will have already been queing 5-10seconds so it's pointless using it, because the only people who will benifit are exactly the kind of people you don't want to be spawning behimd the enemy lines.
Its once again logistcally redundant.

10. So you can HOVER amd dodge shots? So you can be stationery yet avoid incoming fire?
Either your breaking the laws of physics or the people in PC are terrible shots.

1: Because logi doesn't do combat- based things.

2: several chat channels, IRC, and a skype chat. As for naming all of them, nope (I have a terrible memory for names, I just remembered about how many people I asked). And like I said, it was the bubble rep (the first choice) which pretty much all but like two saw as being OP, and then I asked if a turret would be better, in which even those two said would be a much better idea. Also, it wouldn't be a LLV and 2 people, it would be a LLV and like 10 people (because that's how bubbles in dust/legion works; whoever can fit inside the bubble can get whatever the bubble gives).

3: rails are OP, go figure. Even then, a non-idiot pilot will still nail you, as they could simply dodge your shots.

4: No, it isn't.

a- EVE cloaks last forever

b- EVE cloaks has a module activation timer once you decloak

c- you disappear off the map.

(oh, that's right, that last one would need to be changed to you disappear, but is still scannable.). That makes it completely different from the infantry cloak.

5: Force Recon and logistics are tech levels, not meta levels. You obviously don't get how it works.

6: No, this accounts for both HAV's and DS's. HAV's have the Enforcer, the Marauder, and the BO HAV, and the DS has the LDS, the ADS, and the FRDS. the LAV only has so far the SLAV and the LLV (which is why I said it's the only one with two.). And yes, As I said, infantry only has two per frame so far, but can easily get more (Actually, the Heavy has 3, seeing as though the Crusader exists).

7: I'm sure eventually he'll stop being a **** and listen.

8: I'm asking..........

9: First off, T II vehicles or frames for that matter are not for "the everyday use". They are specialized for a specific role, and they excel at that role.Second off, you clearly don't get the point of the active CRU.

step 1: inform a LDS pilot that you need a rapid drop off for your squad

step 2: Turn off your clones at the CRU, or kill yourself

step 3: the pilot turns on the active CRU

step 4: your squad spawns in the CRU, then instantly jumps out, right over the target, with no delay.

OR

step 1: your squad dies, and a LDS is nearby repping vehicles

step 2: you ask the pilot to turn on the active CRU

step 3: the pilot turns on the active CRU

step 4: You're instantly back in the battle.

Things like that are not possible with a regular CRU, but with the active one, it is.

10: No, I stay generally in the same spot, slightly move, and dodge the shots. works quite well, especially when you're repping vehicles that is shooting at the target (not sure why you'd be doing a rep DS, but okay).

1. The Amarr logi is specifically built for combat based things. Also all those equipment slots make Logistics suit famtastic for demolition roles.

2. Ok I get the feeling you amd I are getting confused, does your turret create an AOE or a single target? If it's a single target like you've been saying the whole time, pointless. If it's a turret that creates a healing bubble AOE then you should have made this clearer

3. Yh tanks and associated weaponry is pretty much all OP right now.

4. I'd say it is since it means you can't cloak up to a craft to blast with short range weaponry, you still need to approach a little closer. Also I don't think it should be untimed thats as OP as hell right there, I already memtioned b, n c.

5. Ok now your just going round in circles, there are somethings that clearly no hope trying to explain to you.

6. They don't have a BO yet.

7. We can only hope

8. Good luck, don't hold your breath

9.So it requires death and/or suicide meaning you loose your fit, so the onlymtime it will be used will be when someone needs to return quickly, which by the time they ask, you turn it on and they select it as a spawn point, it would have been no faster than a regular CRU, except people won't constantly spawn, kinda pointless. What would make sense is being able to enter the drop ship with out the need to go through the door like a repel or something.

10. So yh they are pretty bad shots then. I also concurr a repping ds is kinda pointless, but if you are doing transport, it is much more favourable to hover for a LANO jump, because your troops can start fighting/reacting the secknd thry alight.

This however requires you being (near) stationery for a short period of time, at which point a rail 2 shots you.

1: 'looks at Amarr logi, sees that it gets bonuses towards uplinks, only combat thing about it over the other logis is a sidearm' definitely a combat focused suit. Much better than all the other actual combat focused suits in the game And to the demolitions thing, like it matters, as you'll be shot before you can actually do anything (because logi's are slow; have you ever seen a speed tanked logi? I haven't).

2: No AOE, as AOE would be OP, as I have stated already. It would be aim and fire, like any other turret.

3: HAV's are broken, not OP. Get it right.

4: First off, I forgot another, and that is that the vehicle would slow down while the cloak is on (I say that a covert ops cloak comes in for the FRDS so it won't go slower). That would solve your speed problem. Also, explain why you think a unlimited cloak is bad. Not like you can do anything but stalk while it's on, because as soon as it's off, bam, you're a big ass target.

5: Well if you use logic, maybe I would agree with you.

6: BO HAV was ingame. You weren't there for it (My Kubera was amazing).

7: CPM says that he's molding, so I think we'll be fine. Apparently there's worse than him now sadly (IWS said that last bit, so yea)

8: Well, a LDS doesn't make sense to get one, and I'm sure others wants it as well, so I'm sure it'll come.

9: No, you misunderstand (as usual). the first one is rapid replacement of an entire squad. Also, it's not like it lasts 10 seconds either; reinforcements could spawn on it as well, and the continual spawning (which again is near instant) could last for quite a bit, upwards to a minute, possibly longer. Anyways, how else are they going to get to spawn?

10: So you've never done a hot drop before? Because when I do it, I hear no complaints of a bad drop. Also, if a HAV is looking at you, a DS, then your AV/HAV support is not doing its job.

1. Yes I have a Minmatar Logi with SL, 2 RE and Nanohives, it's my AV only fit, goes like the clappers, I don't need health if people can't shoot me. Considering the Amarr Logi has the highest base EHP, a decent slot layout, that all important sidearm and doesn't loose it's grenade, its about as combat orientated as they're gonna get without stepping on the toes of assaults.

2. Then it's cr*p for every reason I have already specified, you are using a LLAV, a driver, a gunner and relevant turret to heal ONE guy at a time. You only need to come across an enemy with half a brain and they kill each guy before you have an opportunity to heal them. Pair this with repair tools not repping shields and it's just a recipe for disaster.

If you do it correctly an AOE won't be OP, not to mention it still requires the LLAV being present who can be dealt with using traditional AV weaponry.

3. Broken to the point of OPness

4. Yh speed problem solved, still no infinite cloak, that shouldn't need explaining

5. Says the guy who literally contradicts himself

6. . . . . .your damn old

7. . . . . .excellent

8. if there is no whatever you want, it makes perfect sense for a LDS to get one

9. So of very minute benifit over a standard variant, again tactically, logistically redundant for the penalties it gives.

10. I've done HALO, HAHO, LALO, LANO and landings before thank you very much. I obviously need to get involved in PC again, because it seems like they are all terrible shots over there.