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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1519
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Posted - 2014.05.18 09:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
From what I understand, basically Dust is a full-time beta again like in 2012 except now it's a beta for a game on another platform. Which doesn't bother me as much as it did (now that I've calmed down from fanfest) because I remembered something. I remembered the reason I joined this Beta back in 2012 was because I wanted to help build the greatest persistent shooter ever made.
So, in the spirit of beta testing, here are my thoughts on moving forward with AV versus Vehicles:
We reduce the price of all vehicles and vehicle modules down to dropsuit equivalent ISK values and buff the hell out of all AV weapons. Then spend a week testing it. If AV is too much, take AV down a touch and try another week of testing. Test Tuesday day through Friday, collect feedback Saturday through Monday, make adjustments on Monday, test Tuesday through Friday, etc.
Then once AV v V gets mostly good feedback on the forums, you have gotten close to balance. You can crank tank prices back up AND have good data to send over to the balancing team in the PC port. Then you can make minor tweaks to AV or vehicles to fine-tune the balance. The idea is to get things close first, and right now they are FAR from close.
Balance = Any one player when running AV gear should have a chance against any one person driving a vehicle. A MLT AR can kill a protosuit in the right hands, the same should be said about MLT AV and fully specced tanks. There is one person driving the tank, so it should take one person to kill the tank. Period.
As it stands now - A proto prof. 5 swarm cannot break the rep cycle of vehicles, so a MLT swarm has no chance. Swarms need their projectile speed jacked way up, their original clip size returned, and their original damage back. AV grenades are completely useless unless they are packed, and even then there's only 2 now so our AV grenade damage has been dropped by 33.333_%. Make the packed damage the basic AV nade damage, then bump it up from there. Forge guns are mostly good right now, but they seem to still misfire occasionally and the lower tiers could use a slight damage bump. There is no reason why Plasma Cannons shouldn't do as much damage as a forge gun. The projectile is easily avoided, you have far less ammo, and your clip size is one. You already OHK 99% of all suits with it anyway, so I say make the PLC do equal damage to the breach forge gun.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1519
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 10:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:All this would break AV and vehicle balance.
I would counter by saying Vehicle/AV balance is already broken. It takes 2 swarms from a prof. 5 proto swarm to kill an unspecced LAV when it an unspecced LAV should be 1 shotted by any swarm CBR and above. An unspecced BPO Saga can live through 2 ADV packed AV grenades and 1 shot from all but a fully specced breach forge gun. And don't even get me started on the PLC.
The changes I proposed would put AV with a slight upper hand but would reduce the cost of vehicles to compensate. Then you can build backwards. The jump to AV performance I suggested would still leave AV less effective than vehicles v AV is right now.
The PLC changes would make them actually viable, and may still not push them as far as they need to go. It's a fun weapon that is really trolly against infantry and can support other AV weapons, but that's about the extent of it. It's slow projectiles coupled with it's single round clip are it's essence, that's it's trademark. So instead you buff the damage so it can do the damage of a breach forge. With it's current drawbacks it will still be a skill weapon, but it will finally be a halfway decent option for AV.
The changes to swarms would not return their range, meaning out distancing them is still a viable tactic. If you recall, swarms used to have a much faster lock-on time as well as their previous damage/range/clip size/damage. I merely suggest you speed up the swarms so tanks cannot outrun (a tank going faster that a jet propelled missile makes zero sense), increase the damage values back to their previous values (so that at least top tier swarms can break the rep cycle of vehicles that decide to stick around), and return the clip size (because if you are going head-to-head with a vehicle that can 2/3 shot you, you deserve more than 3 shots before reloading).
The forge guns are in a pretty good place right now, but they still have a bug that causes occasional misfires which should be fixed. The damage per tier also needs tweaked imho but that's debatable. The variants definately need to have their draw-backs and bonuses fixed as well. There's no point in having variants when one of them makes the rest of them obsolete. For example, the assault forge in my mind was meant for head-to-head engagements with vehicles since it cannot hold a charge and charges at a very high rate. It has really high damage compared to the standard and higher DPS than the breach. So that it isn't used as an all-range forge all the time, the projectile for the assault should have some level of inaccuracy so that it isn't the go-to forge for forge sniping and tower-camping vehicles. This would make the breach and regular forges a more viable choice for ranged fights. The breach should have it's damage increased so that it's DPS at least equals that of the assault forge for the first clip fired, and perhaps even a slight (SLIGHT) zoom mode since it charges slower than any other variant and you cannot move while charging it.
As for AV grenades, dropping the count to two makes sense.... if your grenades do the proper amount of damage. Your grenades count more so you can't afford to miss. But the damage they do needs to matter more. If they made it so that you only had 1 AV grenade it would be fine, IF the damage they did mattered enough.
I don't see this as breaking anything, if anything this sounds more balanced to me than the current VvAV balance. Could you please explain why you find this less balanced?
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1519
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yoma Carrim wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:All this would break AV and vehicle balance. I don't see this as breaking anything, if anything this sounds more balanced to me than the current VvAV balance. Could you please explain why you find this less balanced? I believe Judge is looking at it from the standpoint of the Dropship Pilot. Bye increasing the damage all around to combat HAVs and LAVs this puts Dropships at a significant disadvantage due to having less health and being a less stable platform. By pulling on one thread you mess with the current web. While the Web is currently lopsided this dose not mean that we wish to make it lopsided in the opposite direction. We want the web centered. For this when we buff AV we also need changes to ALL vehicles to make sure the AV Buff dose not mess with their effectiveness if it is already close to Balanced. Judge instead of saying it would break AV and Vehicle Balance why not suggest some counter Vehicle changes so the AV buff dose not unravel our fragile Web? Is it not better to help fix the problem then simply say what the other person is suggesting won't work? For example increasing the Dropships CPU and PG to help with fitting cost so higher tank can be fit to counteract the AV buff? P.S a fully specked out Wyirkome Breach forge gun will one shot a BPO unfit saga I've made a lot of LAV heavies mad this way
The biggest changes I suggest are to Swarms, AV grenades and Plasma Cannons, none of which (according to Judge's own videos) are even a real nuisance for a dropship. And they should be. Well... with the exception of AV grenades (unless they are flying low). The changes that would effect dropships are to the forge guns, and in some ways they would help dropships. I don't know if you read my whole post, but if you did you saw me saying that assault forge guns should get some level of inaccuracy added into them. The assault forge gun, apart from tank rails, are the biggest problem dropships face right now (according to the 5 ex-Dust dropship pilots I played with... up til fanfest.... =/). It's RoF allows it to batter DS's constantly and even assault DS's cannot change direction on a dime. Making assault forges have less accuracy would leave them just as viable as they are now vs. close-mid distance vehicles, but would make them difficult to use long range, forcing people to fall back on the slower charging variants to deal with ranged vehicles.
That being said, I understand what you are saying 100%. I am just positing that these buffs are needed for all AV to be viable against dropships as well as other vehicles. If the large rail turret on tanks wasn't such a huge pain for dropships, I do not believe these buffs would be looked down upon.
@ you PS, I mentioned that a fully specced breach could do it. I may have worded it a little odd (feeling under the weather today), but my intention was to convey that only a fully fitted and specced proto breach could one-shot a BPO LAV.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1519
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 11:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Glyd Path wrote:You seriously think the janitor has time to do all that? Give the guy a break.
They said they could adjust the values on weapons easily during any downtime, so I do believe this is a realistic request.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1520
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 12:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:All this would break AV and vehicle balance. Increasing then AV Grenade damage by 33.33% wouldn't make AV grenades any less overpowered than they were in the Uprising 1.7 patch.
And upping the PLC damage to breach forge levels wont even make the PLC as good as a forge gun is right now.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1521
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Posted - 2014.05.18 15:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:I've said it before but I'll say it again. Buff the hell out of turret installations.
Change neutral turrets to fire at reds and blues until hacked, increase their Ehp by 500% (not joking, they should be as hard to kill as a CRU) and voila, tanks have something to do in the game that actually has risk involved for them.
Wanna kill that turret quickly before it dominates your tank? "Use teamwork scrubs!"
Worried some infantry AV might combine forces with the turrets to create an effective roadblock? Welcome to the rest of the game, you are no longer a lion chasing after mice.
I'm telling ya man, turret installations need to be added into the equation to balance the power structure.
While buffing installations would help in some ways, making them better to use for AV than the stuff we spec into for AV purposes makes speccing into AV a waste of SP.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1521
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 15:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:.....this was interesting until I read that you seriously want to make the plasma cannon have the damage of a breach fg. You lost me there pal. Honestly most of these suggestions are to just make av super awesome like it was before vehicle pilots were so fed up and CCP changed it to this. Its actually been really funny to see av players in the exact situation vehicle pilots were in pre 1.7 Sucks doesn't it? Let's not repeat the same mistakes that got us here.
It seems the main issue is with tanks, there are ways to Nerf the tank without over buffing av. For instance, slow them down, seriously they are too fast. I can understand buffing the swarm a bit but defiantly not to the extent you are suggesting op. If you want to down my dropship with swarms you need at least two people because my dropship needs 2-4 people to operate. Fgs are at a really good balance with dropships no buff needed or it will be tower camping days all over again.
Yes the plasma cannon could use a buff but not make it a breach, that's just rediculous, it already hits my dropship pretty hard, buffing the damage that much would probably instant kill it, nothing should be able to just one shot my dropship.
Nerf tanks, not lavs and dropships!
I takes but one person to do well with an assault dropship. Now of you are referring to a transport dropship (ie standard), I might agree that requiring teamwork to take it down would be good. I feel the best way to play the whole thing would be to say "F*** logic" and make it to where anyone on a turret in your vehicle adds a set amount of EHP to your vehicle as long as they are manning a small turret, scaling up the amount added based on SP put into small turrets (thus making speccing into a class for running small turrets a "thing"). Then if there is one person in the vehicle, one person can take it out, 2 for 2 people, 3 for 3.
Barring that, I don't see any reason that if a vehicle sticks around long enough single AV player shouldn't be able to kill it. Also, pre 1.7 I had plenty of epic battles 1v1 with some of Dust's top tankers. Some I won some I lost, but they were great. It's the fact that my maxed swarm skills against anything but the absolute best of tanks and tankers was far too much. I knew they needed to be nerfed, as did anyone else. However in addition to nerfing all AV, they buffed all vehicles.
If you undid most of the nerfs on swarms (barring the range nerf, range was far too good before) we'd still not be back to 1.6 levels because the vehicle buff is still in place. The difference being that we would actually be able to break the rep cycle. Hardner stacking would be viable again, rep stacking would be less viable but still viable, running a combo setup would be a thing finally, and vehicles wouldn't even have to be touched.
As for the PLC, tell me how it would be OP with more damage considering it's snail-like pace flying through the air, it's tiny splash radius, it's single shot clip and it's ungodly long reload. Because I don't see it.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1521
|
Posted - 2014.05.18 16:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Duran Lex wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:.....this was interesting until I read that you seriously want to make the plasma cannon have the damage of a breach fg. You lost me there pal. Honestly most of these suggestions are to just make av super awesome like it was before vehicle pilots were so fed up and CCP changed it to this. Its actually been really funny to see av players in the exact situation vehicle pilots were in pre 1.7 Sucks doesn't it? Let's not repeat the same mistakes that got us here.
It seems the main issue is with tanks, there are ways to Nerf the tank without over buffing av. For instance, slow them down, seriously they are too fast. I can understand buffing the swarm a bit but defiantly not to the extent you are suggesting op. If you want to down my dropship with swarms you need at least two people because my dropship needs 2-4 people to operate. Fgs are at a really good balance with dropships no buff needed or it will be tower camping days all over again.
Yes the plasma cannon could use a buff but not make it a breach, that's just rediculous, it already hits my dropship pretty hard, buffing the damage that much would probably instant kill it, nothing should be able to just one shot my dropship.
Nerf tanks, not lavs and dropships! Only problem with your pre 1.7 comment is that only people under 15 mil SP got dominated by infantry AV. 15mil+ with the right fittings and you were looking at 8 ishukone FG shots with prof 5 and 2 complex damage mods to take em out. Properly fit HAVS could take a beating like a champ, just ask True Adamance.
And Ninjanomyx. And BLAZ3. And Jax Thrife. And Commander Tzu. Etc., etc., etc. Of course English Snake (aka Takihiro Kashuken) and Spkr would never admit it.
All the old tanks needed was a speed buff and a slight EHP buff. Or not even that, just throw in the higher tiered tanks with additional slots and slight HP bumps, then drop the ISK prices to current prices and tanks would have been fine.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1522
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Posted - 2014.05.18 21:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hakyou Brutor wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Any one player when running AV gear should have a chance against any one person driving a vehicle. A MLT AR can kill a protosuit in the right hands, the same should be said about MLT AV and fully specced tanks. So, you're saying a 'good' person in a free AV suit should be able to solo a fully specced proto tank? 
I am saying a "good" person in a free AV suit who fights ANY tank stupid enough to stick around long enough should be able to kill a tank, yes. No vehicle should be able to squat on territory indefinitely when being hit by AV, regardless of tier.
And someone please inform Spkr his brain dead comments are being ignored, I don't have the energy to do it myself.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1525
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Posted - 2014.05.18 23:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Hakyou Brutor wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Any one player when running AV gear should have a chance against any one person driving a vehicle. A MLT AR can kill a protosuit in the right hands, the same should be said about MLT AV and fully specced tanks. So, you're saying a 'good' person in a free AV suit should be able to solo a fully specced proto tank? I am saying a "good" person in a free AV suit who fights ANY tank stupid enough to stick around long enough should be able to kill a tank, yes. No vehicle should be able to squat on territory indefinitely when being hit by AV, regardless of tier. And someone please inform Spkr his brain dead comments are being ignored, I don't have the energy to do it myself. So you're not enough of an adult to have a conversation with me yourself? I pray you don't have children.
I've had more than enough conversations with you and English Snake over the last 2 years to last a lifetime. I'd rather not rehash the exact same bullshitt arguments you pull outta your ass every time I talk to you, so I leave it to others to deal with your drivel. Have fun with that.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1531
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Posted - 2014.05.19 18:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Atiim wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote: If you want to down my dropship with swarms you need at least two people because my dropship needs 2-4 people to operate. No, it does not require 2-4 people to operate. The true power of the dropship is when it is fully loaded with an experienced crew, i simply cannot put out the kind of fire power or have the same tactical diversity without a good crew.
I understand what you are saying, but that still leaves us with the problem of those out there who can and DO go 20/0 in an assault dropship solo match after match as long as they aren't swatted out of the sky by rails or well placed forge gunners. It does happen. Foxhound Elite, Dust Fiend, Judge, Ghosts Chance, CodeBreaker, I could go on. Just because YOU suck at firing that front ADS turret doesn't mean everyone does. And don't feel bad, I suck at firing it too, so you're not the only one.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1532
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Posted - 2014.05.19 21:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jake Diesel wrote:I have to run an Ishukone FG just to be able to have a chance at dropping HAV's and dropships without too many reloads. It usually takes 6-7 shots at armored HAV's. But after 3 shots, HAV's don't hang around. The charge up time needs to be brought back to the way it was before and increase the splash radius a tad.
The RoF increase I can understand, but increasing the splash again will just lead back to the rampant forge sniping that the splash nerf was implemented to get rid of.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1533
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eko, for the last time, killing ****** tankers in ****** tanks doesn't make AV good. So shut your face until you actually know what you are talking about boy.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
MAG Vet ~ Raven
R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
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