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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2864
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Posted - 2014.05.18 09:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
HAV's are a force multiplier. That is what the role should be. A tanker by himself should in effect be worse than an infantry slayer.
But give him an infantry escort and those infantry are suddenly worth 2-3x times their normal force strength. An example from 1.7, Spkr and his jolly band of tryhards were wolfpacking against me and a few mlt blueberries, so I pulled out my first ever blaster tank, they hid like you would expect, 20 seconds later they all died to the blueberries, despite having superior gear.
Tanks should always be doing this. Suppresion/Area Denial/Large Munitions Support/Portable Cover/Battering Ram
These all things a tank could and should do on a regular basis, but they don't because. 1) A blaster is just as effective as concentrated squad fire 2) They have more health than a squad 3) Are immune to most weapons 4) Faster than infantry
A HAV has all the benifits of an entire squad without any negatives.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2864
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Posted - 2014.05.18 19:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:HAV's are a force multiplier. That is what the role should be. A tanker by himself should in effect be worse than an infantry slayer.
But give him an infantry escort and those infantry are suddenly worth 2-3x times their normal force strength. An example from 1.7, Spkr and his jolly band of tryhards were wolfpacking against me and a few mlt blueberries, so I pulled out my first ever blaster tank, they hid like you would expect, 20 seconds later they all died to the blueberries, despite having superior gear.
Tanks should always be doing this. Suppresion/Area Denial/Large Munitions Support/Portable Cover/Battering Ram
These all things a tank could and should do on a regular basis, but they don't because. 1) A blaster is just as effective as concentrated squad fire 2) They have more health than a squad 3) Are immune to most weapons 4) Faster than infantry
A HAV has all the benifits of an entire squad without any negatives. Which ones of those can you logically take away that would give tanks an actual role? There would need to be mechanics changes to allow HAVs to unleash suppressive fire without slaying. I'm honestly of the opinion that complexes should be owned by infantry and be designed as vehicle death traps (sharp blind corners, multiple angles of attack, lots of cover etc and outer points should be the plaything of vehicles; open, little cover during traversal between complex and outer points etc.
1) The blaster
Not only does it have accuracy that makes a sniper look like a shotgun, it has DPS that would make a HMG cry and range that rivals a forge gun.
Simply make is so a large blaster will find it difficult to hit anything smaller than a tank at 30m, enough to keep people in cover but not enough to kill anyone unless they are in the open.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2864
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Posted - 2014.05.18 21:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:HAV's are a force multiplier. That is what the role should be. A tanker by himself should in effect be worse than an infantry slayer.
But give him an infantry escort and those infantry are suddenly worth 2-3x times their normal force strength. An example from 1.7, Spkr and his jolly band of tryhards were wolfpacking against me and a few mlt blueberries, so I pulled out my first ever blaster tank, they hid like you would expect, 20 seconds later they all died to the blueberries, despite having superior gear.
Tanks should always be doing this. Suppresion/Area Denial/Large Munitions Support/Portable Cover/Battering Ram
These all things a tank could and should do on a regular basis, but they don't because. 1) A blaster is just as effective as concentrated squad fire 2) They have more health than a squad 3) Are immune to most weapons 4) Faster than infantry
A HAV has all the benifits of an entire squad without any negatives. Which ones of those can you logically take away that would give tanks an actual role? There would need to be mechanics changes to allow HAVs to unleash suppressive fire without slaying. I'm honestly of the opinion that complexes should be owned by infantry and be designed as vehicle death traps (sharp blind corners, multiple angles of attack, lots of cover etc and outer points should be the plaything of vehicles; open, little cover during traversal between complex and outer points etc. 1) The blaster Not only does it have accuracy that makes a sniper look like a shotgun, it has DPS that would make a HMG cry and range that rivals a forge gun. Simply make is so a large blaster will find it difficult to hit anything smaller than a tank at 30m, enough to keep people in cover but not enough to kill anyone unless they are in the open. That kind of inaccuracy is uncalled for lol
Maybe, but the current level of accuracy is equally uncalled for. If you camp an uplink with a blaster tank it is possible to line up headshots with 100% accuracy.
That little dot on the hud, is EXACTLY where the round hits, EVERYTIME! It's this that makes tanks do the slayer role than any infantry unit possibly could.
Make it accurate enough to reliably hit vehicles at 'short' range (80-120m) but struggle with a single infantry man.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2866
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Posted - 2014.05.19 05:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:My thoughts on Vehicles in Legion
First off, I'd like to say that I think all vehicles in Legion should be Crew Served. There should be no "I drive and shoot" vehicles at all (unless the driver is swapping seats). This is a team game and it should encourage teamplay.
Goodness me no, so the entire use of your investment relies on some mltm0 blueberry you don't know and hope he is competent enough to fire on the target you are trying to present him? Vehicles do not have to be crew served as the compulsory, but it shouldn't give 1 person more than 1 forcestrength either.
Alright, now that that is out of the way....
LAVs: Fast, light troop transport intended for small groups looking for fast insertion (that is much less conspicuous than a DS tearing through the sky). They should be the most maneuverable ground vehicles in the game, fairly squishy with only minor offensive potential (single small turret best used to deter enemies from pursuing). Seats three, one driver, one (Small turret) gunner and one passenger (potential to swap turret for extra seat giving one driver and three passengers).
Like the idea of being able to swap out the turet for a seat
MAVs: Durable squad logistical support vehicles intended for use as a mobile command post. Not as fast as LAVs though able to muscle over nearly any terrain, moderately defensible (no need to flee at the first sign of hostiles, though by no means a main battle station). Possesses built in Biomass and Nanite bays, seats six passengers (plus one driver, one main (Medium turret) gunner and two secondary gunners) with enough cargo space to accommodate their gear.
Nope, a MAV is literally an APC it jist won't have the size or the tank to be a command post. 6 passenger, 1 driver operated light/medium turret will be more than sufficient.
HAVs: Beastly direct action support vehicles intended for use as point defense/mobile artillery. Decent ground speed (3/4 MAV speed at max), terrible turret tracking speed (at least outside of Siege), ridiculous EHP and massive DPH potential. Seats one driver, one main (large turret) gunner and two secondary gunners. Can fit a Siege module which consume fuel though increases turret tracking speed at the cost of mobility (activating a Siege mod renders the HAV immobile until the Siege cycle is over).
Fuel? So now we have fuel? Seige modules typically reduce your speed to 5% of its maximum, reduce tracking speeds, but increasd damage and resistance, however seige modes typically time to deactivate meaning a seiged vehicle is often doomed in a poor engagement
DSs: Fast (max speed 3x that of an LAV), fragile, maneuverable airborne troop transports capable of moving up to two squads of passengers faster than any other mode of transport. No turrets though equipped with chaff to assist in longevity as well as a tractor module for those times when the extraction point is too hot for a landing. Seats a single pilot in addition to twelve passengers.
LZ's will always be hot becausd you have no weapons from which ypur team can defend yourself, dropships are typically tactical troop transports, taking no more than 6, but allowing you to drop them off in presice locations, which is better than HALO jumping from a hercules class transport. 6 passengers, 2 light turrets
ADSs: Gunships that are slightly slower than DSs (3/4 DS speed at max), less maneuverable, fairly durable (~150% DS EHP) and bristling with guns though with no passengers. Seats one pilot, one main (Medium turret) gunner and four secondary gunners.
if anything an ADS should have less EHP and more maneuverability, it's an assault model. Once again there is no need to change it, it's too Assault Forwarded
Just a quick runthrough on how I believe vehicles should be (not exactly, though at least the idea is conveyed). All vehicles should have a defined role that isn't just "I invincibly pwn everything".
Instead of trying to drastically change the majority of vehicles which already work (even HAV's are almost balanced), instead consider more vehicles that fill the roles you want.
MATV: (Medium Aerial Transport Vehicle) Carries 18 people/12 + 1 LAV/ 2 MAV's / 1 HAV MATV are all about logistics, flying is the superior mode of transport and these craft let everyone have access to it.
HAAV: Gunships! 2 slaved medium turrets (on each side), 1 light guners turret.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2867
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Posted - 2014.05.19 20:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:I wouldnt mind seeing HAVs split into a two user operated machine.
It doesn't make a lot of sense in a 16v16 scenario on Dust but in 24v24 - 32v32 I think multiple people makes more sense.
Also, if they redesign the skill tree for vehicles, a two user operated HAV can make more sense than it does currently in Dust. It would certainly help given their overwhelming power. numbers is not the reason why it is a bad idea. Also, that doesn't solve any of the problems that has been repeatedly been mentioned about it. The biggest reason why having a split gunner HAV doesn't make sense in Dust is because there are no other alternatives for a ground based vehicular warfare for a solo player. Otherwise you will have two conflicting views about HAVs. The first being, 'they are tanks! they should be amazing!" vs. "no single player should wield so much power at the cost of only isk" That sums up about 90% of HAV forum posts. Let's see: 1: Pilot skills for and pays for (most of the time) for the HAV. 2: Pilot calls in the HAV. 3: lore explains why the pilot controls both the turret and the driving 4: It'd be boring just to drive the HAV, and not get to shoot. Since you couldn't use the search function, I gave them to you.
However that's not to say a variation of tanks that do require 2 people wouldn't ever happen. You just shouldn't be forced too.
Cruiser HAV Driver: Fixed Medium Turret Gunner: Gyroscopic Large Turret (large elevation angle) No light gunner slots.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2867
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Posted - 2014.05.19 21:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:
numbers is not the reason why it is a bad idea. Also, that doesn't solve any of the problems that has been repeatedly been mentioned about it.
The biggest reason why having a split gunner HAV doesn't make sense in Dust is because there are no other alternatives for a ground based vehicular warfare for a solo player. Otherwise you will have two conflicting views about HAVs. The first being, 'they are tanks! they should be amazing!" vs. "no single player should wield so much power at the cost of only isk" That sums up about 90% of HAV forum posts. Let's see: 1: Pilot skills for and pays for (most of the time) for the HAV. 2: Pilot calls in the HAV. 3: lore explains why the pilot controls both the turret and the driving 4: It'd be boring just to drive the HAV, and not get to shoot. Since you couldn't use the search function, I gave them to you. However that's not to say a variation of tanks that do require 2 people wouldn't ever happen. You just shouldn't be forced too. Cruiser HAV Driver: Fixed Medium Turret Gunner: Gyroscopic Large Turret (large elevation angle) No light gunner slots. 1 medium AND 1 large would be OP. You fix the Medium Turret so it can only fire directly infront of the tank, it would make the Cruiser HAV a better Anti-Vehicle brawler but the lack of rotation makes it almost Impossible to track infantry, especially in complexs.
But you get my point you should be able to operate HAVs solo, but if you are prepared tomwork with someone and sacrifice your turret to the, then the HAV will recieve other benifits.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2868
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Posted - 2014.05.20 10:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zdubz: It's good practice that something that only requires 1 person to operate, should only require 1 person to neutralise. It's good practice that if you own something you should be capable of using it by yourself
These make games fun. Teamwork should be overpowered, but not a necessity, as soon as you expect 16 people who can't communicate, to use teamwork you start ruining the game.
Current HAV's are almost fine, a small AV buff (+10% for profile damage loss, +10% to make HAVs killable) and some inventive tweaks to allow AVers to make skill shot (SL 70m range before rocket guidance), then a little nerf to reppers 420 HP/s is more than enough. A readjustment to blaster accuracy so that it struggles hitting infantry and sinhle man HaVs will be balanced.
But doing anything that makes teamwork a necessity is a very bad idea.
Godin: It doesn't really matter what you think about the cruiser (its on paper stats are good but it just wouldn't stack up irl), the point is currently HAVs don't reward teamwork, there is no benefit of any decent magnitude to having to gunners on your tank.
It requires no less effort to take down a tank with 1 person than it does to take down a tank with 3 people and that is wrong. If someone knows they have corpmembers and are prepared to teamwork they should be rewarded, with a tank that is more powerful than a 1 man tank.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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