DUST Search - Recognition of DUST vets in Legion

Fox Gaden wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

Fox Gaden wrote:

BPOGÇÖs:
Suits: At the very least we should get suits of the appropriate class with the same look as the original. (Skins) Provided that the suit exists in Legion. (I think the Commando is going to be added, but it might have a different role in Legion.)

Other BPOGÇÖs: If they donGÇÖt have BPOGÇÖs in Legion, or BPOGÇÖs function very differently I hope people will be accommodating. I donGÇÖt get the GÇ£you have to introduce a broken mechanic into the game because I paid for something 2 years agoGÇ¥ mentality. The Devs should do what is best for the game first, and then try to accommodate the people who were effected by the change second.

Suits should be a non-issue based on CCP Zs presentation at FanFest, thought I would say that the BPO suits which have zero skill requirements could be altered to contain the proper requirements without any ill effects.

Other BPO's: To be blunt, it's not a broken mechanic but it would be a broken promise/trust on the part of CCP.
Unless we assume there will be no starter fits, which I do not see how we can assume such based on the history of both Dust and EVE, as well as the fundamental drawbacks of their absence (i.e. players can be bankrupted completely out of the game), then the mechanical advantage of a Dust style BPO militia mod is exceedingly minimal.
Also the statement that maintenance of BPOs is about a 2 year hold purchase alone is tangibly inaccurate.
EVE: The Second Decade Collectors Edition is on sale right now in the EVE Store (as of the time of this post). Further even within EVE:O where asset change is much more reasonable, as you are paying a subscription for world access not a specific fee for a specific item, T2 BPOs still exist - and those items have vastly more impact on economics and New Eden at large than a MLT CPU upgrade for example. The precedent is set by CCP and adhered to even currently within EVE:O, revoking it in this specific sub-case violates persistence and player trust.
I believe in this case that supporting the community trumps eradicating a mild ISK advantage, both within light of New Eden precedent via EVE:O and to maintain persistence between Dust 514 and Project Legion. Without sound/renewed player trust the F2P micro-transaction method will be in a bad spot.

By broken mechanic I was referring to the uproar over CCP removing BPOGÇÖs for stuff that was no longer in the game. If CCP feels that a module or other item does not work the way it was intended, they should have the right to remove that item from the game to make the game better. I donGÇÖt agree with CCP being restricted in what they can remove from the game just because there was a BPO for that item.

When CCP removed items from DUST and some players had BPOGÇÖs for those items, they were given the AUR value of the BPO back. I thought that was fair. But a lot of people freaked out over it. Maybe they should have just been allowed to keep the BPOGÇÖs that could not be fitted to a suit or serve any other useful purpose, because they seemed quite attached to them. Maybe if there was a player market those things might have some value to collectors.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2083	Posted - 2014.05.20 14:40:00 - [1] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I think DUST characters migrated to Legion should retain their original creation dates. - Closed Beta vets all have the same birth date. They day DUST 514 was transferred to Tranquility. - You can also identify from the date if someone was from Open Beta, or at least from DUST before the Legion announcement, or at least before Legion Beta. These creation dates will be a point of pride, especially if Legion is successful. These are good ideas, I have to jump in here and take it a step further however. While I want my characters history, name, creation, etc preserved and think that all current Dust players at the time of Legion launch deserve to have character preservation, we are not truly getting to keep our characters unless we can also transfer persistent assets of substance. These persistent tangible assets are the meat and bones of what we've worked so hard on all these months (or years, depending). Things like Skill Points BPOs ISK Gear Character stats The above is listed in descending order, I'll elaborate; Skill Points - This is the most substantial core of any character, it most directly represents our time invested, our success (or failure, you earn SP for both ) on the field, and our overall dedication to the game over the long haul. Regardless of how the progression system for Legion is rolled out this time spent by Dust mercs now and in the past must be recognized in a meaningful mechanical way or the promise of persistence, and thus faith with the community, has been broken. BPOs - These should be even easier to keep in Legion, all Dropsuits are already slated to be BPOs. It is a given that many specific stats might change between now and Legion launch but all current BPOs should be assets migrated into Legion as recognition of those who supported Dust in its infancy, spent IRL funds on it, recruited new players to the game (even in the face of the still unfixed recruiting system), played the events, and bought the EVE Collectors Edition which is still on sale as of this week. ISK - Market balance may change, so wallets may be scaled, but something for all the ISK earned in Dust should be given a serious look in migration to Legion. Even if all Dust ISK were transferred it would still be only a drop in the bucket compared to the ISK of EVE, something to consider in the face of a truly integrated economy. Gear - Easy, just like the BPOs. Yes stats will change, this is a given but even if the names change and Pro becomes "rare" etc there are clear equivalents (and with the sale of things like the EVE Collectors Edition there should be equivalents maintained) which can be provided in the assets of the transferred characters. Of course they'll still have to invest their SP to use such things within the Legion framework but that's always been the way and in its own right helps to sustain persistence. [ Stats - I've long said some of our stats are broken, as such this only makes the end of my list but I know it's an issue some players care about so it bears mentioning. Any stats that are going to be tracked within Legion should be transferred with the mercs incoming from Dust 514. Meaningful Persistence - This is fundamental to the nature of the game Dust was presented to be, the nature of the New Eden sandbox, and to demonstrating a meaningful respect for the player base. CCP, the sooner you can step forward to remove that nagging fear of persistence in name only, the sooner we as a community can once again move on with confidence that we're playing a game where our choices matter, and after all that's why we're here in New Eden. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2114	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:34:00 - [2] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Stuff Skill Points: As long as they continue to have passive skill point gain over time, there is a way to transfer skill points fairly even if they dramatically change the value of a skill point. It is called GÇ£Equivalent Passive TimeGÇ¥. Basically GÇ£Equivalent Passive TimeGÇ¥ means calculating the time it would have taken you to earn your current total skill points in DUST 514 if your account had not been played. So, if you played your account, or used boosters, or both, your Equivalent Passive Time would be quite a bit longer than the actual age of your account. The difference between the age of your account, and your Equivalent Passive Time, represents the additional impact of skill points earned in matches and from boosters. Then you take your Equivalent Passive Time from DUST 514, and multiply it by the passive skill point accrual rate in Legion, and it will give you a quantity of skill points that is equivalent in value to the skill points you have in DUST 514. Agreed, even if Legion ends up with no passive SP system (just for the sake of discussion) this method still holds true because I've no doubt CCP will be looking at numbers to assess an average weekly gain, even prior to launch and implementing earnings rates accordingly. Quote: BPOGÇÖs: Suits: At the very least we should get suits of the appropriate class with the same look as the original. (Skins) Provided that the suit exists in Legion. (I think the Commando is going to be added, but it might have a different role in Legion.) Other BPOGÇÖs: If they donGÇÖt have BPOGÇÖs in Legion, or BPOGÇÖs function very differently I hope people will be accommodating. I donGÇÖt get the GÇ£you have to introduce a broken mechanic into the game because I paid for something 2 years agoGÇ¥ mentality. The Devs should do what is best for the game first, and then try to accommodate the people who were effected by the change second. Suits should be a non-issue based on CCP Zs presentation at FanFest, thought I would say that the BPO suits which have zero skill requirements could be altered to contain the proper requirements without any ill effects. Other BPO's: To be blunt, it's not a broken mechanic but it would be a broken promise/trust on the part of CCP. Unless we assume there will be no starter fits, which I do not see how we can assume such based on the history of both Dust and EVE, as well as the fundamental drawbacks of their absence (i.e. players can be bankrupted completely out of the game), then the mechanical advantage of a Dust style BPO militia mod is exceedingly minimal. Also the statement that maintenance of BPOs is about a 2 year hold purchase alone is tangibly inaccurate. EVE: The Second Decade Collectors Edition is on sale right now in the EVE Store (as of the time of this post). Further even within EVE:O where asset change is much more reasonable, as you are paying a subscription for world access not a specific fee for a specific item, T2 BPOs still exist - and those items have vastly more impact on economics and New Eden at large than a MLT CPU upgrade for example. The precedent is set by CCP and adhered to even currently within EVE:O, revoking it in this specific sub-case violates persistence and player trust. Quote: ISK: Totally agree. ISK should be transferred 1:1. If there is inflation, I am fine with that. Gear: All gear that exists in Legion should be transferred. Gear that does not exist in Legion should be converted to ISK at DUST 514 value and transfer as ISK. (There is gear that you canGÇÖt get in DUST anymore, that some people still have in their inventories.) Agreed on all counts. Quote: Character stats: I sort of think it might be better not to transfer stats. My main reason for this is that I want them to change the definition of a kill/death to correspond to the loss of a clone, so if you get revived it does not count as a death for you or a kill for the guy that dropped you. If this change is implemented it will make DUST Kill/Death stats invalid. Maybe the DUST states could be saved on a separate archival record, rather than trying to integrate the old stats with the new Legion stats. I agree on stats and would simply say that any stat which does not carry the same definition as is currently used would be considered a new stat regardless of the name. (KDR has needed an overhaul of a long time and hopefully that will be coming to Legion, but if it doesn't I don't see why it shouldn't be tracked as a persistent element from Dust, even if it is a very poor stat to measure things within the context it is presently used.) Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2115	Posted - 2014.05.22 17:43:00 - [3] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Dust vets should get BPO suits that use prototype colors. We were the prototypes, after all. That shouldn't be too hard to balance in as all suits are going to be BPOs anyway. proto colors would just be cosmetic. Weapons would be harder to balance into the player market as BPOs. But they are worth taking a look into as I'm sure everyone here wants a weapon that they could use to proudly display on the killboard that "I was here first". If militia weapons are going to have both drawbacks of lower mag cap and higher fitting costs, I'd say BPO 'Prototype" weaponry should have standard mag caps, but with militia fitting costs. That would make STD (or equivalent meta level, however that's going to work) weaponry better while letting vain a-holes like me get their kicks from showing up on the killfeed with a rare weapon. I have a fix for that: BPO are for........................ manufacturing! I know, amazing, right? I would love to be able to make weapons using a BPO + Scavenged parts. Assuming manufacturing comes to Legion (which I am not at all opposed to) the change of current Dust style BPOs into something more akin to EVE:O style BPOs would, in my view, not be problematic. I would say that a bit of a bonus to things like effecincy on them derived from the original purchase date would not be amiss as a nod to all the players who supported Dust 514 even during closed beta when all gains from those BPOs were wiped with every new build, but even this courtesy is not strictly required per se. All of this is of course assuming that Legion chooses to handle all equivalent assets in this manner, otherwise it becomes game creep and/or runs into the same breach of trust problem as outright removal of assets due to the rebranding of the Dust-Legion franchise/game. Bottom line is that, especially within a F2P micro-transaction game maintaining the long term fidelity of value for player purchases is fundamental to sustaining player trust and by extension the long term viability and health of the game. 0.02 ISK Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2117	Posted - 2014.05.22 18:31:00 - [4] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: BPOGÇÖs: Suits: At the very least we should get suits of the appropriate class with the same look as the original. (Skins) Provided that the suit exists in Legion. (I think the Commando is going to be added, but it might have a different role in Legion.) Other BPOGÇÖs: If they donGÇÖt have BPOGÇÖs in Legion, or BPOGÇÖs function very differently I hope people will be accommodating. I donGÇÖt get the GÇ£you have to introduce a broken mechanic into the game because I paid for something 2 years agoGÇ¥ mentality. The Devs should do what is best for the game first, and then try to accommodate the people who were effected by the change second. Suits should be a non-issue based on CCP Zs presentation at FanFest, thought I would say that the BPO suits which have zero skill requirements could be altered to contain the proper requirements without any ill effects. Other BPO's: To be blunt, it's not a broken mechanic but it would be a broken promise/trust on the part of CCP. Unless we assume there will be no starter fits, which I do not see how we can assume such based on the history of both Dust and EVE, as well as the fundamental drawbacks of their absence (i.e. players can be bankrupted completely out of the game), then the mechanical advantage of a Dust style BPO militia mod is exceedingly minimal. Also the statement that maintenance of BPOs is about a 2 year hold purchase alone is tangibly inaccurate. EVE: The Second Decade Collectors Edition is on sale right now in the EVE Store (as of the time of this post). Further even within EVE:O where asset change is much more reasonable, as you are paying a subscription for world access not a specific fee for a specific item, T2 BPOs still exist - and those items have vastly more impact on economics and New Eden at large than a MLT CPU upgrade for example. The precedent is set by CCP and adhered to even currently within EVE:O, revoking it in this specific sub-case violates persistence and player trust. I believe in this case that supporting the community trumps eradicating a mild ISK advantage, both within light of New Eden precedent via EVE:O and to maintain persistence between Dust 514 and Project Legion. Without sound/renewed player trust the F2P micro-transaction method will be in a bad spot. By broken mechanic I was referring to the uproar over CCP removing BPOGÇÖs for stuff that was no longer in the game. If CCP feels that a module or other item does not work the way it was intended, they should have the right to remove that item from the game to make the game better. I donGÇÖt agree with CCP being restricted in what they can remove from the game just because there was a BPO for that item. When CCP removed items from DUST and some players had BPOGÇÖs for those items, they were given the AUR value of the BPO back. I thought that was fair. But a lot of people freaked out over it. Maybe they should have just been allowed to keep the BPOGÇÖs that could not be fitted to a suit or serve any other useful purpose, because they seemed quite attached to them. Maybe if there was a player market those things might have some value to collectors. Understood and thank you for the clarifications. I do feel that the case of character transfer from D514 to Legion is a bit different. Player market in that case would have been a possible alleviation, as would "transmutation" rather than removal (i.e. conversion of the BPO into a copy of the nearest equivalent BPO). To be honest, while in retrospect is worth considering I usually lean towards focusing my feedback on the situation moving forward. In this case I don't expect BPOs from Dust to be moved to Legion with their identical stats, names, and appearances. However providing players with BPOs of the nearest Legion equivalent in all cases (be that BPOs in the current Dust sense or in a more EVE:O sense) is on balance the most reasonable choice. In essence CCP must take care, for while they should not be bound to maintain broken mechanics they need to maintain the fidelity of persistence within the sandbox and within their micro-transaction offerings. Adapt or die only works when adaptation is derived from player choice not a sort of mechanical or iterative game of chance. Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2144	Posted - 2014.05.26 20:12:00 - [5] - Quote What about standings with the NPC empires, how will transfer of these be handled? Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2227	Posted - 2014.06.03 18:07:00 - [6] - Quote I know it's still early in the process, so it may be a bit, but I'd love to get confirmation from CCP that they're looking into transferring our assets as well as our SP, AUR, ISK, and histories. If asset transfer is not on the table then it would be good to get word on how we'll be compensated for all of the gear (and AUR gear, and BPOs) that we possess. Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2372	Posted - 2014.06.16 14:08:00 - [7] - Quote Any word on the further progress of working out a transfer system CCP? Any areas that we as a community could perhaps contribute to or engage with? (Note: these are each separate questions, I'd love updates even if there's nothing as yet ready for community feedback) Cheers, Cross Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate