DUST Search - Please Minimize Hitscan

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Monkey, I'm afraid those are some incredibly dubious physics there.
That rail rifle round requires approximately 10000 terajoules to move at that speed.

It doesn't create an energy field as it moves, it's propelled by magnetic fields in the rail rifle. That can take it up to a few times the speed of sound, but it won't take it to ~0.9c.

The plasma round doesn't move at that speed either given that it's just a highly ionised form of matter.

Regardless, even at much lower speeds like 2500m/s (which has already been stated as the speed of a rail shot) it'd cross the effective range so fast it's not worth considering.

A combat rifle round, which might appear the obvious candidate for ballistics, likely moves in excess of Mach 3, given that high powered modern rifles are already capable of attaining such speeds. That's about 1000 m/s.

At that speed, it'd cross the effective range of the combat rifle in about 8 milliseconds, or 0.08 of a second.
That's half the human reaction time. It'd be completely unnoticeable except as a cost to performance.


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ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2924	Posted - 2014.05.16 10:22:00 - [1] - Quote This is where game mechanics and game lore dont agree. Take a look at any weapon that fires a projectile... do those rounds look like they are firing at 2500 m/s? Its more like ~100 m/s or so to me. They really need to fix that... either rewrite the lore or change the mechanic... doesnt matter. So we know the forge guns and rail guns are both projectiles which are not hitscan weapons and definitely suffer from CQC issues. Hitscan = bullet magnetism from what I understand (I know aim assist is a large contributor to bullet magnetism as well). If its not expensive, I think Buster has a point. There is a reason they dont have hitscan weapons in BF4 after all. It would truly make low rof weapons like the rail rifle intrinsically bad in CQC and high RoF weapons (all min bullet hoses) very powerful in CQC.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2924	Posted - 2014.05.16 10:45:00 - [2] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: So we know the forge guns and rail guns are both projectiles which are not hitscan weapons and definitely suffer from CQC issues. Those weapons being bad in CQC really has nothing to do with hitscan. Don't get me wrong, im not saying they are bugged, or that anything about the FG or Rail needs to be fixed... I'm saying you can clearly notice in short range engagements (and long range even moreso actually) that projectile weapons in this game don't hit like hitscan weapons. So they either need to animate the bullets like they are going 2500 m/s and match the mechanics to the lore or acknowledge that the bullets are travelling around 100-200 m/s and consider rewriting the lore and include some projectile physics. We don't need bullet drop, but rifles don't act like forge guns in terms of hit detection (imo at least) and we could consider removing the hitscan mechanic if its not expensive to do so. If it is expensive... meh, better things to spend development time on.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2924	Posted - 2014.05.16 11:46:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Monkey, I'm afraid those are some incredibly dubious physics there. That rail rifle round requires approximately 10000 terajoules to move at that speed. It doesn't create an energy field as it moves, it's propelled by magnetic fields in the rail rifle. That can take it up to a few times the speed of sound, but it won't take it to ~0.9c. The plasma round doesn't move at that speed either given that it's just a highly ionised form of matter. Regardless, even at much lower speeds like 2500m/s (which has already been stated as the speed of a rail shot) it'd cross the effective range so fast it's not worth considering. A combat rifle round, which might appear the obvious candidate for ballistics, likely moves in excess of Mach 3, given that high powered modern rifles are already capable of attaining such speeds. That's about 1000 m/s. At that speed, it'd cross the effective range of the combat rifle in about 8 milliseconds, or 0.08 of a second. That's half the human reaction time. It'd be completely unnoticeable except as a cost to performance. That is what i'm saying though... the lore says that but you can clearly see in game the rounds do not move that fast. They either need to change the lore or fix the game mechanics to actually represent these values. At most I would say the rounds in game are traveling 250 m/s, absolute maximum.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2926	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:02:00 - [4] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: That is what i'm saying though... the lore says that but you can clearly see in game the rounds do not move that fast. They either need to change the lore or fix the game mechanics to actually represent these values. At most I would say the rounds in game are traveling 250 m/s, absolute maximum. How can you clearly see that hitscan rounds aren't moving that fast? They hit instantly. Have someone stand about 50-60m out and fire around your head. You can see the rounds coming at you and zip by your head. They aren't moving that fast. At 2500 m/s you would only see tracers. This is especially noticeable with the assault rifle.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2928	Posted - 2014.05.16 15:45:00 - [5] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: That is what i'm saying though... the lore says that but you can clearly see in game the rounds do not move that fast. They either need to change the lore or fix the game mechanics to actually represent these values. At most I would say the rounds in game are traveling 250 m/s, absolute maximum. How can you clearly see that hitscan rounds aren't moving that fast? They hit instantly. Have someone stand about 50-60m out and fire around your head. You can see the rounds coming at you and zip by your head. They aren't moving that fast. At 2500 m/s you would only see tracers. This is especially noticeable with the assault rifle. ZDub are you saying that the current system for weapons like the assault rifle is not hitscan? I am not. Damage calculation is most definitely done by hitscan. What I'm saying is that there is a disconnect between in game mechanics and the lore. The lore states that bullets are traveling out of our rifles at thousands of m/s. If that were true, you wouldnt need anything but hitscan for most any of the weapons in the game as the time between firing and damage application at ranges sub-100 meters would be on the order of the network latency between our computer/PS3 and the server (0-40ms for 0-100m). With a system like that, ballistics are mostly pointless, and I would argue the forge gun and both large and small rail turrets should also be hit scan. However, the in game mechanics show that bullets are actually traveling much much slower than 2500 m/s. I don't know how you could actually measure bullet velocity with any degree of accuracy but I suspect its around 250 m/s or so that bullets actually travel. At that point its 400 ms between round fired and round hit at 100m, which is large enough that I believe ballistics would matter... like they matter for the forge gun and rail turrets. So what i'm really trying to say here is either: 1: Fix the game mechanics and make those projectiles fire so fast that you could not see a reason to remove hitscan. 2: Fix the lore, remove the fact that these weapon fire rounds that travel as thousands of m/s (cause they dont in game) and then consider removing hitscan like they already have for the forge gun and rail turrets. Either way, its not the presence of hit scan that matters imo, its the lore/mechanic disconnect. The game feels like it shouldn't have hitscan because the rounds aren't traveling all that fast to begin with. So either remove hitscan or make the game actually feel like it should have it.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2943	Posted - 2014.05.18 02:47:00 - [6] - Quote Question for the people saying hitscan doesnt matter... Do you think if they changed the railgun and the forge gun to hitscan it would matter?