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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13352
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Posted - 2014.05.16 09:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Having weapons not be hitscan is basically irrelevant unless map size is over doubled or something.
A rail rifle round will travel at 2500m/s. Blink, and it's across the map. Within its effective range it'll make no difference whatsoever apart from being a performance drain.
A laser/scrambler rifle round will travel at the speed of light.
A plasma rifle round uses the same principles as a rail rifle shot.
The combat rifle is really the only rifle you could make this argument for but the round velocity is still so high it'd have very little effect on anything.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13354
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Posted - 2014.05.16 10:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:
So we know the forge guns and rail guns are both projectiles which are not hitscan weapons and definitely suffer from CQC issues.
Those weapons being bad in CQC really has nothing to do with hitscan.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13355
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Posted - 2014.05.16 10:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Monkey, I'm afraid those are some incredibly dubious physics there.
That rail rifle round requires approximately 10000 terajoules to move at that speed.
It doesn't create an energy field as it moves, it's propelled by magnetic fields in the rail rifle. That can take it up to a few times the speed of sound, but it won't take it to ~0.9c.
The plasma round doesn't move at that speed either given that it's just a highly ionised form of matter.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13359
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Posted - 2014.05.16 11:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:
That is what i'm saying though... the lore says that but you can clearly see in game the rounds do not move that fast.
They either need to change the lore or fix the game mechanics to actually represent these values.
At most I would say the rounds in game are traveling 250 m/s, absolute maximum.
How can you clearly see that hitscan rounds aren't moving that fast? 
They hit instantly.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13409
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Posted - 2014.05.16 21:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:As I'm sure you know, even with a pretty minor delay due to projectile travel a quickly moving, unpredictable target would be hit less than under the same circumstances with hitscan. This is partly why I think hitscan is generally bad - because it removes nuances and tactics from the game.
I don't think that's very likely, actually.
With a strafing target the problem is generally much more tied to the reaction time. Nobody can track a target perfectly, and so while some of the fight comes down to tracking ability a fair bit of it is down to luck. The difference non-hitscan weapons would make at the ranges in a strafe fight would be irrelevant. You're looking at a couple of milliseconds, if that. That's a fraction of the human reaction time - it's going to make no difference.
If you wanted ballistics to matter and for that to be noticeable in a strafe fight you'd have to cut the speed by a huge amount, to the point where fighting at range would become practically impossible.
If you want an example of this, look at planetside 2. That has weapon ballistics. In a strafe fight, does it -really- make much of a difference? At range it most certainly does, but these weapons don't operate at nearly those ranges.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13420
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Posted - 2014.05.16 22:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:
You make good points. Please keep in mind, that I'm expecting engagement ranges for Legion to be significantly longer than in Dust. This won't be true for all weapons, and maybe for none, but it's certainly a possibility that didn't exist on the PS3. Also, as an example using the long range sniper role - with hitscan you can just wait for a target to move under your crosshair and then fire - 100% guaranteed hit. Even with fast projectiles and relatively short range, a randomly moving target is no longer a guaranteed hit. Obviously the longer range the more true this becomes as travel time increase, and as the silhouette size decreases.
I don't really see engagement ranges in Legion becoming drastically longer - and they'd have to, if they were to warrant ballistics for most weapons. At its core I don't think the game will be drastically different. I mean, look at the demo - it's all the same base. There's not much justification to change the engagement ranges so hugely.
I would like to see it a little more, though, on weapons where it makes sense. It actually does make sense on sniper rifles - having ballistics allows it to be a more interesting affair than direct point and click from a distance and rewards skill shots. It also paves the way for sniper rifles to actually be powerful (but require some ability) rather than redline hiding snorefest tools. As I recall there was an 'Experimental sniper rifle' in closed beta which functioned a bit like this.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13424
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Posted - 2014.05.16 22:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:
You may be right. I still say that hitscan is something that we don't need. It's a crutch that hasn't been computationally necessary in a long time - more than a decade on PC.
Again, though - is it really a crutch if it makes very little practical difference? You're really not going to see the difference from having a non-hitscan weapon except in a handful of cases.
Quote:
Sure, it might not be something that's directly noticed in shorter range engagements, but it adds depth and subtlety. Imagine, as an esoteric example, an LAV exploding nearby as you train your weapon on a target. just as you fire, pieces of the destroyed LAV fly out and actually intercept a projectile as it travels from you to your target. Now, you clearly would miss in this case, and that possibility isn't available using hitscan. Now, you could go further and have that projectile ricochet off the flying piece of debris and hit something else. This type of mechanics exists in PC games that do not resort to hitscan, but are simply not possible when hitscan is used.
This is why I have asked for CCP to minimize hitscan, not necessarily eliminate it altogether. Legion would be better for it.
The chances of a piece of an exploding LAV actually intercepting a projectile are minimal.
Let's go with this hypothetical situation, though.
We can assume that an exploding LAV will throw out a certain amount of shrapnel and debris (assuming we have a destruction and physics system for LAVs like this, which is unlikely). As the distance from the LAV increases, the amount of shrapnel in the area decreases, and the chances of the debris intercepting a shot drops pretty much exponentially.
So, we have to be very close to the exploding LAV. When you're so close, the travel time of a projectile is going to be minimal.
To the point where if the debris would intercept the projectile even if it were hitscan instead of travel time based.
This is obviously an edge case. Even if by some minor miracle CCP managed a physics and destruction engine for LAVs sophisticated enough to have shrapnel with hitboxes, the chances of this scenario occurring are tiny.
So for most weapons, what benefits does a non-hitscan weapon system bring? Why would Legion be better off for it?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13427
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Posted - 2014.05.16 22:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:
You don't have to be close for the LAv to be in the line of fire. That makes no sense.
I've already stated many reasons that Legion would benefit from minimizing hitscan, and yes it is certainly a programming crutch.
Regardless of where hypothetical exploding LAV with hypothetical physics and destruction engine is, the chances of hitting a piece of debris with a hitscan weapon and with a travel time weapon are similar. It's practically random.
What reasons?
Ricochet? You can have that with hitscan.
Vastly longer engagement ranges? You're suggesting changing fundamental parts of the game that are fine as they are.
To increase 'skill' required? There's no practical difference.
EDIT: I see you've quoted a wikipedia article suggesting otherwise. I don't believe it's that difficult to run a second calculation from the point of intersection.
Though really 'exact definition of hitscan for everything no exceptions' isn't what I want.
I just think that starting to muck about with weapon ballistics too much is unnecessary.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13429
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Posted - 2014.05.16 23:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
It isn't.
The Halo 3 sniper rifle does that, and don't quote me on that but I believe even the Halo 1 sniper did.
Those have some pretty mean ricochet.
Halo 3 sniper rifle isn't strictly hitscan, though.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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