The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
1156
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Posted - 2014.05.15 22:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
- The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
The actual fact would be that new players can get competitive quicker with a linear system. If they are guided along a role, they don't drop extraneous, non-useful SP along the way. However, I do agree that being too restrictive on this could be detrimental. Not to the competitive level, but the fun, play your own way, style that DUST has been toting since Closed Beta and Before.
Fox Gaden wrote:
- Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.)
Yes.
Fox Gaden wrote:- No max number of skill points. (The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well.)
EVE may have no maximum number of Skill Points, but the same Time = SP is put in. The only difference is that in EVE you earn x amount of SP per month / week / day / hour so long as you have a skill in training, (And you have an active subscription). This semi-passive SP accrual makes it seem as though the sky is the limit.
DUST 514 took this concept, and to encourage people to play (as any F2P title would) halved the passive SP, and put an active 'cap' on top to bring it up to their prospective SP over Time level. In fact, in DUST, unlike EVE, it's possible to grind beyond said cap (albeit at a much slower pace) whereas in EVE you get a flat rate no matter what.
DUST also, instead of requiring something to be invested into (nominated skill in training) it goes into a pool. I'm not a huge fan of the SP pool with Passive and Active SP incomes... but the alternatives can slide to reward a flat WP to SP (or EXP) rate similar to that of Planetside 2 where every action gives you EXP, no cap, but making it suchj a grind that while you CAN make max level fast, it requires ALOT of time investment. Or alternatively, we take an EVE style approach and make it all Passive. You choose x skill, and gain sp while that skill is in the queue. This doesn't encourage people to play, however, and player numbers and activity is what makes F2P actually work.
Transferring the DUST system to Legion is a happy compromise. You can leave, and come back, and have gained SP (albeit half of what you could have earned) or you can actively play and earn more SP.
Until we have many more details on the new Progression system (which is still in prototype phase) I wont comment on the overall system's effectiveness.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
1156
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 01:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:
- The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
The actual fact would be that new players can get competitive quicker with a linear system. If they are guided along a role, they don't drop extraneous, non-useful SP along the way. However, I do agree that being too restrictive on this could be detrimental. Not to the competitive level, but the fun, play your own way, style that DUST has been toting since Closed Beta and Before. What the hell are you talking about? I was talking about the expenditure of skill points over time, as in: a linear relationship of skill point benefit over time compared to a logarithmic curve where the benefit of skill points is high at first and decreases over time. By definition new players would never become competitive at all in a linear system unless benefits derived from skill points was completely meaningless. Non Linear system: Level 1(31,320 SP), Level 2 (93,250 SP), Level 3 (217,650 SP) Linear system: Level 1 (31,320 SP), Level 2 (31,320 SP), Level 3 (31,320 SP)
I may have misinterpreted you original post. I will grant that. However, my point still stands to an extent.
Getting new players competitive is not just about SP rewards, but about the multiple linear paths.
For instance.
Veteran Specs into Caldari Assault. Grabs everything...spends, say 10 million SP and becomes 'perfect' in that role (Not actual figures)
New guy only needs 10 million SP to attain competitive level in a comparable Role. The veteran CANNOT get better by having 20 million SP on their toon, coz they already have maxed out the assault role. Newer guy with 10 million SP is AS good, in that role as the veteran player is.
Having multiple Linear progression paths has the same effect without hampering veteran advancement.
tl:dr
Extra SP means more roles, not better roles.
Note: I took your Linear Progression ideal as a set series of steps you follow, not related to the amount of SP attained. Linear Progression rings - Straigh Line Progression - to me. It may be due to my previous experience, but that is how I interpreted it.
Fox Gaden wrote:My point was to boil down the principals that should be followed in any system they come up with, not a commentary on the system CCP Z proposed. I don't know enough about CCP Z's system to know if it follows these principals or not.
I admit to being very disturbed over how badly you have misinterpreted my post. Did I really explain myself so poorly? I am usually good at explaining my thoughts.
What are the core principals that you think need to be followed in any successful progression system?
Principals that I personally believe need to be followed are:
Ease of Understanding
Players need to know what, where, and how they are going to get to their goals. Defined by role, weapon choice, vehicle type, etc. Knowing where they are going, and how they will get there, and roughly how long that will take.
Allowing progression, and catch-up, without hampering other's gameplay
The ability to let newer players catch up is paramount, but not at the cost of pissing off your veteran players by not allowing them the same level of progression.
EVE and DUST do this by cross-role training, not throttling progression as you get higher. If you invest heavily into a role and 'master' it, you then move to another role. The person behind you only needs to invest the same amount of SP and / or time into that same role to get equivalent.
Make SP Invested and Skill Level the deciding factors.
Each Skill needs to give bonuses, as you stated above, and not simply unlock new gear, or act as a SP sink. In this way, SP makes a mark. However, it cannot be so strong that Player Skill is nullified by SP investment on it's own. There must be an uphill climb for the less-invested player. but one that can be overcome by player skill.
There are others, but for the purposes of this, those are the 3 core elements I believe make a good progression system.
EDIT: I will have it noted that my preference for progression is side-grades, not upgrades.
Progressing unlocks 'other' weapons, suits, roles, equipment that are neither better nor worse than the previous equipment, but simply play differently.
Plasma Rifle 1 - Has moderate ROF, Damage, Range
Plasma Rifle 2 - Has increased range, decreased ROF
Plasma Rifle 3 - Has decreased range, increased Damage
etc. so on and so forth.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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