DUST Search - [Request] Hello CCP Z, my 0.02 ISK on a respect mechanic

Jadek Menaheim wrote:

Cyrus Militani wrote:

What is the point of spending active time playing to get a respec when you can just earn more skill points to invest somewhere else?

I would say the idea is to refocus a skill path or radically change a play style by going down a different skill path. The idea behind this respec system is to allow player to recoup points, but not do so immediately and all at once. There is a good amount of effort involved.

The skillback system is designed for players to take advantage of CCP's active SP player events to either earn back some skillpoints they already have to gain new ones to add elsewhere. In this context, the system earns back more waged existing SP than new SP gained. For example, a player has unlocked five nodes on the T.I.R Meter with active and passive time built up over a hard fought month of time. This means they have a 7.4x multiplier to earn back active SP gained from battles for skill back of allocated skills. When a 5x Sp active SP event comes around this means they can earn 12.4x (also there is no cap on the amount of SP earned while in Skillback, normal dampeners on WP accrual still remain). While this initially sounds like a lot it's really not when you are considering the player is not earning any new active SP, only existing SP from lifetime reserves allocated for skillback.

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Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 2997	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:19:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. I share the sentiments of the community that a respec option should be handled carefully and here is my proposal to both potentially reduce issues of flavor of the month band-waggoning and making skill development planning critical. The idea mirrors a system already in place, the log-in bonus. Time Investment Respec Meter As you actively play matches and participate in loot recovery missions you gradually accrue time to your T.I.R Meter. Say after 10 hours of active play you reach a module point on your meter that awards the player a single day booster and the option for a respec. The player may simply take the respec or chose to continue building the meter for more and better booster farther down the line of active play time. However, if a player chooses to respec at any time down this meter progression path, the path is reset back to zero time and the player must re-accrue time to unlock rewards once again. I am asking for help from the community to hammer out the specifics of progression awards in the T.I.R. Meter. With regards, Jadek Menaheim Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1830	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:53:00 - [2] - Quote A decent idea. Kind of be like DKP; you can Suicide to burn all your DKP for something big. 10 Hours: Give a 1 day Passive Booster and a Respec 25 Hours: Give a 1 day Active Booster. 50 Hours: Give a 3 day Passive 100 Hours: Give a 3 day Active Booster. 250 hours: Give a 3 day Omega Booster. Every 250 hours after that: 3 day Omega All Boosters would be Account Bound. Taking the Respec at at any time drops it to zero hours and requires a two weeks to start ticking again. The problem is that it rewards grinding games consistently which is something that DUST has never really been about. Making it a passive thing could work though you would need to triple the time. That would mean a 3 day Omega Booster every month basically and burning the respec would make it a month until you get your next one. The respec thing doesn't concern me too much providing it is at least possible to get one in ways other than throwing money at the problem. If that doesn't happen, a way to at least get 1 or 2 a year without money, CCP will have too much of a monetary reason to change things. "We have discovered in internal testing and through players that the Plasma Rifle is under-preforming compared to the Rail, Ballistic, and Scrambler Rifle. As such, we have increased the damage by 15%." CCP knows this number is too high, a month goes by where the Plasma Rifle is hands down the best weapon, they then release a new patch: "Despite the Plasma Rifle having been too weak, we were too overzealous with our original numbers. We have lowered the original bonus damage to 10% and will continue to monitor weapon balance." Both changes will have people running for their Respecs. If they have to throw 20 dollars at CCP each time, CCP has a financial reason to introduce things that are purposefully overpowered and then balance them later. Riot has been accused of the same thing in League of Legends. When characters are first released, they require 7,800 In game currency (Influence Points) to purchase or 975 real money currency (Riot Points) to purchase. After a week or two, the price goes to 6,300 IP but the RP stays the same. This means if you want a character NOW, you are better off using real money. This has some people suggesting that new characters released are purposefully too powerful so people flock to buy them with real money. After a while, they are put back to balance. The fact that new things released are rarely ever balanced in any game fuels this speculation. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1830	Posted - 2014.05.14 15:55:00 - [3] - Quote Also, here's 3k likes. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3001	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:06:00 - [4] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: All Boosters would be Account Bound. Taking the Respec at at any time drops it to zero hours and requires a two weeks to start ticking again. The problem is that it rewards grinding games consistently which is something that DUST has never really been about. Making it a passive thing could work though you would need to triple the time. That would mean a 3 day Omega Booster every month basically and burning the respec would make it a month until you get your next one. I'm curious what function the two week buffer would add? As for active and passive systems, it could be possible to implement both at the same time similar to how SP is currently accrued. The T.I.R meter is always filling, even when you are away, albeit during this passive state it builds time far more slower. It would be nice to visualize this (passive and active time generation shown as two sections of a single bar). Also very good points on the aspects of not including real money as a factor for initiating respecs. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3001	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:14:00 - [5] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: 10 Hours: Give a 1 day Passive Booster and a Respec 25 Hours: Give a 1 day Active Booster. 50 Hours: Give a 3 day Passive 100 Hours: Give a 3 day Active Booster. 250 hours: Give a 3 day Omega Booster. Every 250 hours after that: 3 day Omega I would also lower the time of that last point. For example, every 180 hours after that: 3 day Omega. There's greater incentive not break the earning chain as you don't have to play another 250 hours to earn another Omega. Also, these figures feel like quite a lot of time for relatively low payouts... Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1833	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:18:00 - [6] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: All Boosters would be Account Bound. Taking the Respec at at any time drops it to zero hours and requires a two weeks to start ticking again. The problem is that it rewards grinding games consistently which is something that DUST has never really been about. Making it a passive thing could work though you would need to triple the time. That would mean a 3 day Omega Booster every month basically and burning the respec would make it a month until you get your next one. I'm curious what function the two week buffer would add? Human psychology, which is what DUST 514 and EVE has always been about when it comes to their skills. I wrote about it here. Quick side track: When WoW was in beta, they had the Rested system like they do now but people HATED it. Instead of you being Normal and Rested, it was Rested and Fatigued. When Rested, you would give 100% experience. So you kill a boar and get 100 exp. When Fatigued, you got 50 exp. It was terrible; "you are punishing me for playing!" So they changed the wording to a bonus. Rather than being Fatigued and getting half of what you should get, you instead got a bonus when Rested. So 'Normal' would be 50 exp for the boar and 'Rested' is 100 exp. Same mechanic but a different wording changed everything. The 2 weeks buffer is like Rested but in reverse . It not only makes the Omega Boosters a sweeter reward but it makes the "I'll just respec every 10 hours" a non-issue because it pushes it back more and more. It also causes the psychological torture that CCP's skill system is known for. "Ugh! I really want to respec because I screwed bad here. But I am three weeks off getting an Omega Booster. If I Respec now, I will even be two weeks behind getting a 1 day Passive Booster!" It makes the decision of when to Respec a meaningful choice just as much as planning SP investment. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3001	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:26:00 - [7] - Quote Point well taken. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1834	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:34:00 - [8] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: 10 Hours: Give a 1 day Passive Booster and a Respec 25 Hours: Give a 1 day Active Booster. 50 Hours: Give a 3 day Passive 100 Hours: Give a 3 day Active Booster. 250 hours: Give a 3 day Omega Booster. Every 250 hours after that: 3 day Omega I would also lower the time of that last point. For example, every 180 hours after that: 3 day Omega. There's greater incentive not break the earning chain as you don't have to play another 250 hours to earn another Omega. Also, these figures feel like quite a lot of time for relatively low payouts... Obviously, I was just spit balling. If you change the time to triple and make when active in a game worth 1.5 time, you change the outcome a bit: 75 Hours: Give a 1 day Active Booster. 150 Hours: Give a 3 day Passive 300 Hours: Give a 3 day Active Booster. 900 hours: Give a 3 day Omega Booster. Every 750 hours after that: 3 day Omega Say someone plays 20 hours a week. That means 178 hours for 7 day period, or ~25.43 a day. That means getting a 3 day Omega the first time will be about 36 days and the one after that will be about 30 days. Not playing at all would make it about the same so maybe even double time and increasing the numbers so that "an average amount of play" is an Omega a month. And a 3 day Omega a month is quite a bit. Remember that events usually happen every month and about every other month is a Triple SP event. That means, assuming you can cap in 72 hours, that is an extra 190,400 SP a month. Activate the booster in the most optimal way to where you can cap in 36 hours over two cycles and you have an extra 380,800 a month. Considering the non-boost amount is 761,600 for Active you are looking at quite a significant gain really. On Triple SP events, you are looking at an extra 571,200 compared to those without it. It a reward for being a "good player that plans ahead" without the "CCP is punishing me for being a new player!" aspect. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8550	Posted - 2014.05.14 16:40:00 - [9] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: CCP Z wrote: We will offer a Respec Option (which does not exist in DUST 514). More information will come down the line as the projectGÇÖs development progresses. I share the sentiments of the community that a respec option should be handled carefully and here is my proposal to both potentially reduce issues of flavor of the month band-waggoning and making skill development planning critical. The idea mirrors a system already in place, the log-in bonus. Time Investment Respec Meter As you actively play matches and participate in loot recovery missions you gradually accrue time to your T.I.R Meter. Say after 10 hours of active play you reach a module point on your meter that awards the player a single day booster and the option for a respec. The player may simply take the respec or chose to continue building the meter for more and better booster farther down the line of active play time. However, if a player chooses to respec at any time down this meter progression path, the path is reset back to zero time and the player must re-accrue time to unlock rewards once again. I am asking for help from the community to hammer out the specifics of progression awards in the T.I.R. Meter. With regards, Jadek Menaheim It seem like a good idea, but then this only means that respecs will happen more often than necessary and we don't want anyone respeccing excessively if it ever comes down to it. An excellent alternative was brought up last year when someone proposed a Skill Back Booster. Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread It even got the attention of CCP Cmdr Wang (back when he was still working for CCP). Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1009985#post1009985 As everyone here knows me very well, I am well known for being extremely against respecs as I feel that it takes away from the whole concept of accepting the consequences of your choices. The skillback booster that was proposed offered a balanced solution that appeases both the anti-respec and the pro-respec crowds. Another alternative that I can agree with is implementing the Neural Remap system that Eve Online has onto Legion. Give all skill books two of the five attributes and have the points allocated to each attribute per year affect the multiplier of the skill books affected. But if we ever see a general respec system implemented in Legion (god, I hope not), then I see no reason why we shouldn't make it have a 1 year cooldown timer just like how the Neural Remap does. EDIT: Another thing to consider is market impact. How will this respec impact the economy since this will affect the demand of certain commodities in the secondary market? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3001	Posted - 2014.05.14 17:33:00 - [10] - Quote @Maken Tosch I was thinking about that system and had considered ways to connect it to the one I proposed, but it seemed a bit complex. I would have gone along the line of something akin to the nodes unlocked on the T.I.R Meter being used to earn skillback points faster from each booster more efficiently. For example, you've unlocked 3 node levels by accruing active an passive time. Activating a skillback booster offer the player an option to use the last unlocked node. Say a skill back booster normally gives you a 1.5x modifer to earn active and passive skill points back. Now the node applies a +1.6x bonus to the original 1.5x now giving you 3.1x the active and passive sp back allow you to use up the booster faster. [O] >>>> [O] >>> [O] >>> [_] >>> [_] [+.4x] > [+.8x] > [+1.6x] > [+3.2x] > [+6.4x] At this point you could continue to skill back and use the next available node, a +.8x modifier, however you do not need to. [O] >>>> [O] >>> [_] >>> [_] >>> [_] [+.4x] > [+.8x] > [+1.6x] > [+3.2x] > [+6.4x] However, it is important to note that if you use a node it will enable a stasis period before time is allocated again to the T.I.R Meter. Stasis time is cumulative to the amount of nodes used in combination with boosters. For example, if you've built up time and unlocked nodes all the way up to the +3.2x bonus using all nodes in a successive string of skillback booster use you would place the T.I.R meter in a combined stasis period of 11 days, 2 hours. [_] >>>>> [_] >>>>> [_] >>>>> [_] >>>> [_] [2hrs] > [24hrs] > [3days] > [7days] > [2weeks] Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\

MySpaceTom Xer Cloud Consortium 268	Posted - 2014.05.14 17:39:00 - [11] - Quote Skillback boosters should not be sold for AUR. I would recommend selling them for a low amount of ISK so all players can afford them; however, active players, not rich players could get the most out of them. You can be my friend too. Join Xer Cloud Consortium today!
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3001	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:55:00 - [12] - Quote Anyone have more thought or input on these designs? Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3001	Posted - 2014.05.15 13:59:00 - [13] - Quote updated the op Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3005	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:41:00 - [14] - Quote Looking for further feedback on the mechanics discussed. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3005	Posted - 2014.05.16 09:43:00 - [15] - Quote It's good to see that CCP Z is very receptive to the idea of a skillback and negative skillpoints. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 59	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:58:00 - [16] - Quote What is the point of spending active time playing to get a respec when you can just earn more skill points to invest somewhere else?
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3008	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:30:00 - [17] - Quote Cyrus Militani wrote: What is the point of spending active time playing to get a respec when you can just earn more skill points to invest somewhere else? I would say the idea is to refocus a skill path or radically change a play style by going down a different skill path. The idea behind this respec system is to allow player to recoup points, but not do so immediately and all at once. There is a good amount of effort involved. The skillback system is designed for players to take advantage of CCP's active SP player events to either earn back some skillpoints they already have to gain new ones to add elsewhere. In this context, the system earns back more waged existing SP than new SP gained. For example, a player has unlocked five nodes on the T.I.R Meter with active and passive time built up over a hard fought month of time. This means they have a 7.4x multiplier to earn back active SP gained from battles for skill back of allocated skills. When a 5x Sp active SP event comes around this means they can earn 12.4x (also there is no cap on the amount of SP earned while in Skillback, normal dampeners on WP accrual still remain). While this initially sounds like a lot it's really not when you are considering the player is not earning any new active SP, only existing SP from lifetime reserves allocated for skillback. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 65	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:38:00 - [18] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Cyrus Militani wrote: What is the point of spending active time playing to get a respec when you can just earn more skill points to invest somewhere else? I would say the idea is to refocus a skill path or radically change a play style by going down a different skill path. The idea behind this respec system is to allow player to recoup points, but not do so immediately and all at once. There is a good amount of effort involved. The skillback system is designed for players to take advantage of CCP's active SP player events to either earn back some skillpoints they already have to gain new ones to add elsewhere. In this context, the system earns back more waged existing SP than new SP gained. For example, a player has unlocked five nodes on the T.I.R Meter with active and passive time built up over a hard fought month of time. This means they have a 7.4x multiplier to earn back active SP gained from battles for skill back of allocated skills. When a 5x Sp active SP event comes around this means they can earn 12.4x (also there is no cap on the amount of SP earned while in Skillback, normal dampeners on WP accrual still remain). While this initially sounds like a lot it's really not when you are considering the player is not earning any new active SP, only existing SP from lifetime reserves allocated for skillback. Couldn't you accomplish the same goals passively? Choose a single node that you want back and have it take an 1 hour per level. While that's happening the entire node is unavailable until it hits 0.
Jadek Menaheim Ancient Textiles. 3008	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:49:00 - [19] - Quote @Cyrus Militani Yes there is a degree of simplicity to passive skillback, however, I feel there is something more enticing to a player in actively earning back points. In the freedom to allocate as many skillpoints (and skill nodes respectively) you are giving yourself a goal to reach at the end of the week. It takes some planning to know what is possible to actively earn back in a week so you don't lose existing points. And the results of what you accumulated for skillback doesn't become final until you give the green light; just to protect players from royally ******* themselves over by testing out the skillback function on all of their skill nodes. Gÿ+/ Join MySpaceTom's army /Gûî /\
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 67	Posted - 2014.05.16 20:55:00 - [20] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: @Cyrus Militani Yes there is a degree of simplicity to passive skillback, however, I feel there is something more enticing to a player in actively earning back points. In the freedom to allocate as many skillpoints (and skill nodes respectively) you are giving yourself a goal to reach at the end of the week. It takes some planning to know what is possible to actively earn back in a week so you don't lose existing points. And the results of what you accumulated for skillback doesn't become final until you give the green light; just to protect players from royally ******* themselves over by testing out the skillback function on all of their skill nodes. The only reason why I would want skill points back is because what I skilled into I either (1) hated because I couldn't try it before skilling into it or (2) what I skilled into vastly changed because of balancing. If I could passively get those back I wouldn't feel gipped by trying something out. And I only get to play a couple days a week, so having to do it actively really isn't appealing to me. I think the overall goal is to prevent people from getting skills back instantly. That's fine, but it should be a simpler approach. Honestly I wish there was a way to try something before skilling into it. I wouldn't need a respec then. Militia gear just doesn't cut it.



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