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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
392
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Posted - 2014.05.11 14:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since CCP Rouge asked nicely for our feedback, I figured I would play nice for once. What I am about to say has been mostly talked about in the past for the future of Dust, but I will talk about it for Legion. The basic structure of what I would like to see in Legion looks something like:
High Sec: Will be your basic lobby shooter (like we have now) where you transfer your consciousness from battle to battle for small cash and quick thrills.
Low Sec: Should also be similar to what we have now: a form of planetary conquest. The difference should be that the players don't "own" the planets, but you and your friends/corp mates can transfer your consciousness semi-permanently to a planet and scavenge/mine its resources. But anybody else in the game can do the same. In the far future iterations, this would include deployable structures that would improve resource production, structures that will help in defensive and offensive operations of the planet, etc. So you will have an investment in the planet, but you wont just right out own it and be able to passively farm ISK from it. Basically though, Low Sec should be heavily focused on an open world style of gameplay.
Null Sec: First and foremost, no transfers of consciousness. This is where the most interaction with EVE players should occur. There is no concord interaction to help with transfers of consciousness so actual players and player corporations in EVE would need to transport Dust mercs and/or clones to where EVE players need Dust mercenaries to do battle for them.
As a side note on this, I believe there should be a degree of separation between "Wild Pvp" and "Drones". Where I see the current concept ending up is the playerbase becoming bored with trying to farm drones because they constantly run into other players and a battle ensues. So why go try to farm drones when it turns into a regular match like we have now? Just go play a regular match. So there should be pure PVE with drones and other forms of AI (nobody wants to just shoot at drones, program some AI mercs too), and then there should be pure "Wild PVP" where drones CAN spawn, but shouldn't be purely expected. As such, those drones would drop officer gear, etc.
And yes I know I referred to us as Dust mercs still, but I contend we are still Dust mercs in Legion. Because from dust to dust we are still mercenaries, but from now on we will be known as legion for we shall be many.
Stuff....?
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Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2193
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Posted - 2014.05.11 15:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
1: I'd say get rid of the hisec PVP anyways, and move it to arenas. Makes no sense to fight on highly populated planets and destroying them like this.
2: We should be able to go planetside, appear into a city, get a mission, grab some gear, and then go out to lesser populated area, do the mission, and repeat in any security area, not just losec of NULLsec.
3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
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Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
392
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Posted - 2014.05.11 15:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote: 3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
That's what they want you to think, you know da space police control everything :P. And I don't really care if genolution operates in null or not, for Dust mercs to be able to hop around the null systems willy nilly completely breaks what null is supposed to be.
Stuff....?
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Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2194
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Posted - 2014.05.11 16:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote: 3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
That's what they want you to think, you know da space police control everything :P. And I don't really care if genolution operates in null or not, for Dust mercs to be able to hop around the null systems willy nilly completely breaks what null is supposed to be. Then explain how they would get into NULLsec.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
392
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Posted - 2014.05.11 16:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote: 3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
That's what they want you to think, you know da space police control everything :P. And I don't really care if genolution operates in null or not, for Dust mercs to be able to hop around the null systems willy nilly completely breaks what null is supposed to be. Then explain how they would get into NULLsec.
Come on dude, are you illiterate now? EVE players would have to transport them or set-up some sort of clone transfer array or something. The whole point of null is players do and control everything. There should be minimal NPC interaction, even Dust side.
Stuff....?
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Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2195
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Posted - 2014.05.11 18:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
RECON BY FIRE wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote: 3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
That's what they want you to think, you know da space police control everything :P. And I don't really care if genolution operates in null or not, for Dust mercs to be able to hop around the null systems willy nilly completely breaks what null is supposed to be. Then explain how they would get into NULLsec. Come on dude, are you illiterate now? EVE players would have to transport them or set-up some sort of clone transfer array or something. The whole point of null is players do and control everything. There should be minimal NPC interaction, even Dust side.
That's not explaining how it would be done. You seriously think that you can just pack in several hundred clones in a ship and just go? they would die. And or something is not a answer.
Again, explain how it would be done.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad.
2858
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Posted - 2014.05.11 19:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
Just to be clear... no part of Molden Heath is null sec. Egbinger and Skarkon reach fairly low true sec ratings of 0.05 and 0.03... but they are still classified as 0.1 systems, which is still low sec. Those systems are both a single jump from null sec regions (Great Wildlands and Etherium Reach, respectively) but they themselves are not null sec systems. |
Joey-Number1
Maniacal Miners INC No Safe Haven
101
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Posted - 2014.05.11 20:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:1: I'd say get rid of the hisec PVP anyways, and move it to arenas. Makes no sense to fight on highly populated planets and destroying them like this.
2: We should be able to go planetside, appear into a city, get a mission, grab some gear, and then go out to lesser populated area, do the mission, and repeat in any security area, not just losec of NULLsec.
3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
It would be nice to do a all kind of missions in High sec most of the time, but pvp shouldn't completely dissapear from there. Tho High sec is definitely more suitable for pve missions, there s so many possibilities with them. Not just a drones, but different scenarios, with reaching something, exploration, scouting, disabling, destroying or defending gained point or thing... just so many options and diverzity for pve, and missions.
Minmatar Logistics since the beginning.
Mass Driver my first and the only fully specialized weapon.
Explorer.
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
200
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Posted - 2014.05.11 20:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Good ideas.
Although I want to separate the predefined PVP matches we have today and the Wild roaming PVE / PVP of Legion. (Both should exist, but in two distinct sections of the game... Contracts vs sandbox)
My take (sandbox game only) High Sec: No EVE link: Search for potential scavenger sites and deploy solo or with squad by clone jumping. When you drop you "lock" the district so no other people can intercept you, and thus all fights will be against AI. This will prevent grefing, and could be explained by Concord granting you exclusive rights to the district for a duration of time. Loot will be of type common.
Low Sec: Low EVE link. Capsuleers can now support you from orbit using OBs etc. You still clone jump directly to the district, but other people / squads can intercept you. Loot will be more valuable, and it should perhaps be something valuable for the EVE pilots as well.
Null Sec: High EVE link. No clone jumping. As you state, Capsuleers have to transport you to the destination. Loot should be VERY valuable for both Merc and EVE player, and enemy interception should almost be guaranteed. I would prefer if you actually can't scan yourself in this case, but have to rely on the PI function in EVE to jointly find the loot.
The most important thing for all these are that it can't just be SCAN -> FIND DISTRICT -> DROP -> FIGHT DRONES -> GET LOOT. This will get dull quite fast, so there need to be a variaty of missions you can achieve. Loot should always be involved, but it can't always be the sole objective. There need to be kill (drones) missions, find x items / sites, infiltration, sabotage, rescue, logistics (transport) etc etc.
For all of these, I think they should adopt the EVE agent approach, where you have specialized agents in each system giving the missions to you.
THAT is what we should be scanning for: AGENT MISSIONS, not the loot directly on the planets. (I can buy the whole clone jumping across the galaxy idea, but think it's silly if I can stay in quarters and scan every district in New Eden. Scanning for available agent missions on the other hand makes perfect sense).
The agents should be available in various levels (as in EVE), and some will not available to you until you skill up. Since the Agents exists in both games, you could also have missions that require BOTH mercs and capsuleers, thus getting a "casual" and natural way for both games to interact, with no requirement for corp Membership etc.
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
394
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Posted - 2014.05.12 00:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:RECON BY FIRE wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote: 3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems).
That's what they want you to think, you know da space police control everything :P. And I don't really care if genolution operates in null or not, for Dust mercs to be able to hop around the null systems willy nilly completely breaks what null is supposed to be. Then explain how they would get into NULLsec. Come on dude, are you illiterate now? EVE players would have to transport them or set-up some sort of clone transfer array or something. The whole point of null is players do and control everything. There should be minimal NPC interaction, even Dust side. That's not explaining how it would be done. You seriously think that you can just pack in several hundred clones in a ship and just go? they would die. And or something is not a answer. Again, explain how it would be done.
I do seriously think you can pack several hundred clones in a ship and just go. How do you think anything else gets out to nullsec? Some NPC corp hauls it there for you? Yes it will immediately die if youre stupid and put them in a noob ship and just go. You need an escort, scout, and logistics forces to pull all that stuff off. That is the point of nullsec. I suggest you learn more about EVE before commenting any further on this subject.
Stuff....?
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
394
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Posted - 2014.05.12 00:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:Good ideas.
Although I want to separate the predefined PVP matches we have today and the Wild roaming PVE / PVP of Legion. (Both should exist, but in two distinct sections of the game... Contracts vs sandbox)
My take (sandbox game only) High Sec: No EVE link: Search for potential scavenger sites and deploy solo or with squad by clone jumping. When you drop you "lock" the district so no other people can intercept you, and thus all fights will be against AI. This will prevent grefing, and could be explained by Concord granting you exclusive rights to the district for a duration of time. Loot will be of type common.
Low Sec: Low EVE link. Capsuleers can now support you from orbit using OBs etc. You still clone jump directly to the district, but other people / squads can intercept you. Loot will be more valuable, and it should perhaps be something valuable for the EVE pilots as well.
Null Sec: High EVE link. No clone jumping. As you state, Capsuleers have to transport you to the destination. Loot should be VERY valuable for both Merc and EVE player, and enemy interception should almost be guaranteed. I would prefer if you actually can't scan yourself in this case, but have to rely on the PI function in EVE to jointly find the loot.
The most important thing for all these are that it can't just be SCAN -> FIND DISTRICT -> DROP -> FIGHT DRONES -> GET LOOT. This will get dull quite fast, so there need to be a variaty of missions you can achieve. Loot should always be involved, but it can't always be the sole objective. There need to be kill (drones) missions, find x items / sites, infiltration, sabotage, rescue, logistics (transport) etc etc.
For all of these, I think they should adopt the EVE agent approach, where you have specialized agents in each system giving the missions to you.
THAT is what we should be scanning for: AGENT MISSIONS, not the loot directly on the planets. (I can buy the whole clone jumping across the galaxy idea, but think it's silly if I can stay in quarters and scan every district in New Eden. Scanning for available agent missions on the other hand makes perfect sense).
The agents should be available in various levels (as in EVE), and some will not available to you until you skill up. Since the Agents exists in both games, you could also have missions that require BOTH mercs and capsuleers, thus getting a "casual" and natural way for both games to interact, with no requirement for corp Membership etc.
While not exactly what I have in mind for Dust, I think these are good avenues that should be explored. They seem heavily EVE inspired which, while we are in the New Eden universe, I no longer play EVE because of how bulky the game is. It takes forever to do any simple little thing, which is fine. But, I just feel Dust, outside of Nullsec, should be a far more casual game where you can log in and immediately find a simple fight, or spend loads of time searching for rare items and even materials to make Dust side items.
Stuff....?
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1980
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Posted - 2014.05.12 04:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Personally, I think that the systems security status should vary by District, though not more than +/-.2 difference from the Solar System Sec Status. Hek being a 0.5 might have some Districts that were considered to be 0.7 and some that were considered 0.3.
There should be noticeable differences between Districts with different Sec Status. If the District's Sec Status is <0.5, Eve OB Support can be had and the District can be claimed by any Corporation willing to pay the Claim Fee (as well as any applicable War Declaration Fees to seize the District in the first place). If it is <0.3, there should be special "extractables" that will help to supplement income if Actively pursued (No Passive Isk Faucets).
When you get into Districts that are <0.0 (though not in NPC 0.0), these should start out at the open of Legion as pristine virgin territory that has yet to be fully explored and is still considered remote and wild hinterlands. They will only be developed by players, otherwise remaining untamed wilderness. They should require Eve/Valkyrie assistance to move from planet to planet as well as Eve scanning support to find their extractables.
Though once we are on a planet, we should be able to travel from District to District with relative ease (assuming appropriate standings are had and/or appropriate measures are taken).
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8508
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Posted - 2014.05.12 05:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
In Eve Online, your consciousness is transferred even if you get podded in wormhole space. The implants that the Dust/Legion clones are built around are based off the Sleeper implants salvaged from sleeper sites that are within wormhole space. These implants are able to transfer consciousness across great distances just like the technology used in pods. Only they are far more advanced than the pod technology that Eve players use to transfer their consciousness.
So if a pod can transfer the consciousness of a player from wormhole space which is almost in its own cluster, then obviously these sleeper-based implants will have absolutely no problem transferring across nullsec in the same cluster as New Eden.
Therefore your suggestion to prevent consciousness from transferring from a sleeper-implant-based clone in the middle of Null sec is a flawed suggestion that won't likely ever be implemented.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
394
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Posted - 2014.05.12 10:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:In Eve Online, your consciousness is transferred even if you get podded in wormhole space. The implants that the Dust/Legion clones are built around are based off the Sleeper implants salvaged from sleeper sites that are within wormhole space. These implants are able to transfer consciousness across great distances just like the technology used in pods. Only they are far more advanced than the pod technology that Eve players use to transfer their consciousness.
So if a pod can transfer the consciousness of a player from wormhole space which is almost in its own cluster, then obviously these sleeper-based implants will have absolutely no problem transferring across nullsec in the same cluster as New Eden.
Therefore your suggestion to prevent consciousness from transferring from a sleeper-implant-based clone in the middle of Null sec is a flawed suggestion that won't likely ever be implemented.
Very true. However, I mean specifically transferring into Nullsec. Even if you can transfer through different dimensional realms, there still has to be a body waiting for you on the other side and some sort of neural network to get you there. Basically what Im getting at is that in High and Low sec Genolution/Concord/wtfever would provide the clone bodies and neural network, whereas in Null everything would be provided by players. Something like a Neural Transfer Array in the system would allow Dust mercs to freely bounce consciousness in and out of system as long as the controlling entity has a proper amount of clones stored at that location.
Or do you think it would be better for us to freely move through Null without consequence unlike the EVE players?
Stuff....?
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1980
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Posted - 2014.05.12 12:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
I agree that the tech should still work in 0.0, though only if the necessary tech is present.
The necessary tech should be NPC sponsored in NPC 0.0 and an I-Hub upgrade in Sov 0.0.
TBH, IMHO we should be quartered in Stations in NPC 0.0 at the open of Legion.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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Hyborean Strain
Immortal Guides
87
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Posted - 2014.05.12 15:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
In terms of transporting Dust mercs in/out of lowsec and 0.0, my Anathema cov-ops frigate can easily carry about 200 clones with room to spare. It's quite possible, though not always easy, to get past blockades and warp bubbles. With stealth industrials you could move thousands of clones and hundreds of tanks and airships. Add in Jump Freighters and the numbers get ridiculous. And there are already ships that have onboard cloning facilities... Well you get the point. Moving forces isn't an issue at all.
I imagine that the production of clones will probably remain the same in 0.0, with districts held giving you the ability to make them and sell them on the market. Very little would have to change from a lore perspective. Low-sec and Empire space will have clones in abundance due to the NPC or player markets. One thing that might be interesting is if clones themselves have an escalating cost related to the amount of skill points that the clone has. That's how it works in Eve; a clone that holds 20 million skillpoints costs much more than one that holds 5 million.
Given the attrition rate of clones in Dust battles, it could be a major ISK sink to mitigate the trillions of ISK that Dust corps will have funneled to them the moment that Legion launches. That's on top of dropsuits and vehicles, including the warbarge. These costs might have to be considered when it comes to moving about space, so there could be plenty of risk involved for clones already built into the game. Of course this is all speculation, but it's in keeping with the spirit of Eve.
Amarr Victor!
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
394
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Posted - 2014.05.12 22:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
I would love to see some more (constructive) thoughts on this. Tis a decent thread so far.
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
395
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Posted - 2014.05.13 12:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nobody has anything else to add?
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RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
396
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Posted - 2014.05.14 10:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
How bout some blue tags?
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Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2258
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Posted - 2014.05.14 10:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems). Just to be clear... no part of Molden Heath is null sec. Egbinger and Skarkon reach fairly low true sec ratings of 0.05 and 0.03... but they are still classified as 0.1 systems, which is still low sec. Those systems are both a single jump from null sec regions (Great Wildlands and Etherium Reach, respectively) but they themselves are not null sec systems.
There is .0 systems in MH, but there's barely any (I think 2). So yea, there is a bit of NULLsec there.
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Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad.
2891
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Posted - 2014.05.14 11:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:3: CONCORD doesn't do the mind transfers; genolution does, and they operate in NULLsec (some parts of Moldy Hearth is in NULLsec, so they would obviously have to operate there; otherwise, it would be impossible to get to those systems). Just to be clear... no part of Molden Heath is null sec. Egbinger and Skarkon reach fairly low true sec ratings of 0.05 and 0.03... but they are still classified as 0.1 systems, which is still low sec. Those systems are both a single jump from null sec regions (Great Wildlands and Etherium Reach, respectively) but they themselves are not null sec systems. There is .0 systems in MH, but there's barely any (I think 2). So yea, there is a bit of NULLsec there.
Can you look up those systems names? Cause im telling you, there are no 0.0 systems in Molden Heath... zero null sec systems in MH. |
RECON BY FIRE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
396
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Posted - 2014.05.14 22:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Molden_Heath#sec There aren't any.
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