DUST Search - Who is Legion designed for?

ANON Cerberus wrote:

Luk Manag wrote:

Shion Typhon wrote:

Luk Manag wrote:

And along come casual action junkies who are completely derailed by an asymmetrical battlefield! Where did this asymmetry arise? It turns out that the casual fps fan doesn't think it is fair that someone else has a financial or SP (role options) advantage, and are devastated to see how much time and effort would be required to catch up...never mind that it would only take a few months to achieve near parity with the long term players, that's too great of a barrier for someone who wants a new fps experience every few months.

Casual FPS fan? You have no idea ...

People played Quake and Counterstrike for years and years without ever needing a new game. Don't confuse the fact that Dice/Activision release new games for profit with the fact that FPS players play where the competition is. if everyone stays in Quake, they stay in Quake, if people migrate then they move to where their competition went.

BF 2142 is basically unplayable.

How is BF2142 unplayable? My brother managed to get EA to give him a brand new code for the game that worked on Origin (which surprised me) and not only that, there are still a good 5 or 10 servers still up and playing daily.

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Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 649	Posted - 2014.05.11 01:39:00 - [1] - Quote OK, so I look down the page at various topics in this Legion forum and I see some which are about wild blue-sky dreaming, some which are about numbers focused dial-twiddling of Dust tropes and pretty minimal direction or clarity from Devs. It struck me during Dust's lifespan and now, again, that we have no clear marketing design goal, no clear mission statement for this game. Almost every product in today's world is designed for a need, an audience, a market, a niche, either a technical gap that needs addressing or a customer base that is its market. Even mass-market consumer items like phones and bread are consumer tested and niche focused. So I ask this question: WHO is Legion being designed for, who is your target market? If you say, paraphrase or imply "everyone" then I know that you are hopeless incompetents who have no idea what they want their game to be, no direction, no credible management and this game will be a waste-of-time failure, just like Dust. This is not about platforms, PS3 vs PS4 vs PC vs MS Excel. Though each of them is, of course, a market segment. This is about the type of game and the type of gamer you are hoping to attract. Like a radar chart players are multiple faceted. Some players (like myself) play both RPG/MMOs and FPS (and racing games). Some people sit in the middle of the spectrum, some people sit at extremes. So in my mind, your "points" on the radar chart appear to be FPS, RPG, MMO, PVP and some elements of "Simulator" circa EVE's industrial engine. This is a lot; actually its a freaking goddamn huge amount of points. Its like trying to build a plane that is simultaneously a jet fighter, passenger liner, spy plane and crop duster all at once, master of none, failure at all. Can you combine genres? Sure, Borderlands = successful melding of Diablo Action RPG and FPS (note they didn't dare include PVP). EVE is a successful blend of MMO and PVP. However, every time you add a point, a genre, a market, a style, you're making design choices that alienate one of the others or at least part of the others. To my mind the biggest example of this is in Legion the junction between non-PVP RPG vs PVP FPS. Pretty obvious huh? Unfortunately these two genres in particular are strongly opposed, oil and water, try and mix them and you get an emulsion, which resembles neither and is physically unstable. Both of these genres target audiences are huge, the number of FPS players and RPG players are both enormous segments of the gaming community. Dust had the unique honour of attracting neither of them because it made design decisions that critically inflamed and turned away both. RPGers want power development, infinite customisation, resource control, uniqueness, time-played, explorable maps, more relaxed play, etc. Zero classes/roles is an anathema to an RPG fan. FPSers (mainly talking PVP) want perfect balance, streamlined options, no resources, zero entry barriers, controlled maps, high speed play, etc. Grinding or time played is an anathema to a competitive FPS fan. This isn't purely black and white, its a spectrum but it happens to be a partisan spectrum. Look at these forums and see all the demands from vets for transfer of SP. I get why they want it and in a long term RPG MMO like Warcraft it wouldn't matter but I guarantee that if you do this then the VAST majority of the FPS community won't even take the time to look once at Legion. The crowd you have attracted here in this Legion forum appear to be a predominantly RPG crowd, they seem to have chronically little exposure to a broad variety of FPSes, this is their first FPS or they played Halo once. While I'm writing this post I open my Steam Library and turn around to my console/PC game box stack and count around 30 different FPS/3rd person shooter games that I've bought and played. The things they are asking for are very ... RPGish. This is not a bad thing, its just a ... thing. If these are the guys you want to attract, the RPG fans, awesome, great. But make a game for them. Turn it into the free-roaming Mass Effect-in-New Eden that they seem to want. Heck, I would like that game. Don't pretend its this game as well as a competitive FPS. Let the pure FPS fans know if this is what you want to do, let them move on to something that isn't going to make them $h1t napalm. I know people will say "Oh noes, you are wrong, Legion will be the Jesus-machine of perfect blending of FPS + RPG + PVP + Simulator ever, you just don't see the light, do you hate freedom?!?!?!" These people are fu&%ing idiots. Do not listen to them unless you also want to be a fu&%ing idiot. Sooooo ... tl;dr ... "WHO is Legion being designed for, who is your target market?" Is it the PVP FPS market? Is it the RPG market? Is it a subset of "EVE players who might also like to play space-spreadsheets on two legs"? If you are trying to design this game for the centre of the radar chart you WILL fail and both the FPS and RPG crowds and CCP are better off investing time and energy elsewhere. If you think by some cosmic miracle you can pull this off and go for the centre, please feel free to provide your miracle theory that will officially make you the greatest game designer in the history of mankind. Because unless you can clearly articulate a coherent strategy that addresses this issue then we just have to assume you're dreaming with no real clue. PS: Anyone who starts whining about cross-platform woes is automatically consigned to fu&%cking idiot status.
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 958	Posted - 2014.05.11 01:52:00 - [2] - Quote People who were interested in EVE and liked the whole sandbox thing, but either found it to GÇÿintense' or just didn't like the gameplay. FPS fans who like the whole sci-fi thing, and then get hooked on the MMORPG so side of things. People who like shooters but want something deeper, be it consequences, customization, or both. Ultimately, it's probably going to be more of the latter two - people who just want more from an FPS.
DUST Fiend The Wings of Legion 14302	Posted - 2014.05.11 02:01:00 - [3] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Almost every product in today's world is designed for a need...........either a technical gap that needs addressing You just answered your own thread, before you even asked it.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 479	Posted - 2014.05.11 02:29:00 - [4] - Quote If they want a game with a multi-year lifespan, and Eve-like market systems + resource harvesting, it seems pretty much biased towards RPG by default. Why would persistence matter without progression? The current game mechanics are not a failure nor is it a waste of time. The risk vs reward cost decisions add a unique gameplay dynamic that has favored the RPG type of players over time. Stockpiles of resources, SP grinding, etc. And along come casual action junkies who are completely derailed by an asymmetrical battlefield! Where did this asymmetry arise? It turns out that the casual fps fan doesn't think it is fair that someone else has a financial or SP (role options) advantage, and are devastated to see how much time and effort would be required to catch up...never mind that it would only take a few months to achieve near parity with the long term players, that's too great of a barrier for someone who wants a new fps experience every few months. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Maitue Mae Vortex State Empire 81	Posted - 2014.05.11 02:36:00 - [5] - Quote It's built for the people who have played FPSRPGs like Fallout 3/Newvegas and wanted multiplayer. MAG SVER Veteran. Five Hundredth and Fourteenth Legion: The Dusters.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 649	Posted - 2014.05.11 02:56:00 - [6] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Shion Typhon wrote: Almost every product in today's world is designed for a need...........either a technical gap that needs addressing You just answered your own thread, before you even asked it. "Poorly designed games that satisfy neither RPG players nor FPS players" is probably not a technical gap that leads to significant sales.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 649	Posted - 2014.05.11 02:58:00 - [7] - Quote Maitue Mae wrote: It's built for the people who have played FPSRPGs like Fallout 3/Newvegas and wanted multiplayer. This is probably the most likely answer but if this is the case then they need to go balls deep along this line and stop stringing the purest FPS players along.
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 649	Posted - 2014.05.11 03:01:00 - [8] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: And along come casual action junkies who are completely derailed by an asymmetrical battlefield! Where did this asymmetry arise? It turns out that the casual fps fan doesn't think it is fair that someone else has a financial or SP (role options) advantage, and are devastated to see how much time and effort would be required to catch up...never mind that it would only take a few months to achieve near parity with the long term players, that's too great of a barrier for someone who wants a new fps experience every few months. Casual FPS fan? You have no idea ... People played Quake and Counterstrike for years and years without ever needing a new game. Don't confuse the fact that Dice/Activision release new games for profit with the fact that FPS players play where the competition is. if everyone stays in Quake, they stay in Quake, if people migrate then they move to where their competition went.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1415	Posted - 2014.05.11 06:25:00 - [9] - Quote Not all games need a single target audience. It's easier to focus on one group, but it's not the only way. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2033	Posted - 2014.05.11 06:45:00 - [10] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: People who were interested in EVE and liked the whole sandbox thing, but either found it to GÇÿintense' or just didn't like the gameplay. FPS fans who like the whole sci-fi thing, and then get hooked on the MMORPG so side of things. People who like shooters but want something deeper, be it consequences, customization, or both. Ultimately, it's probably going to be more of the latter two - people who just want more from an FPS. Answered in the first reply. PS2 was a good MMOFPS, but it delved to far into the FPS while still letting you bring a limitless number of guys too a fight. It turned into a zergmatch, like many FPSes with really huge player counts. I feel legion is going in a patch similar to PS2s, with a limit on people per area and the inclusion of RPG elements that can make a smaller group of good skilled men somewhat superior then a large number of newbs. Not to the extent of DUST, which basically made high SP characters gods with twice the health of lower beings, but enough so a set of skilled guys could hold off a army of newbs if they have good teamwork, good gun game and solid gear. Because you wanted to be something you're not.

Hecarim Van Hohen 1445	Posted - 2014.05.11 07:19:00 - [11] - Quote Who? MMOFPS (with RPG elements) fans obviously Also this reminded me of a great quote Roland Deschain wrote: Do people in your world always want only one story flavor at a time? Only one taste in their mouths? (GÿPn+ƒpâ«n+ƒ)GÿP Set a course for intercourse Gÿ£(n+ƒpâ«n+ƒGÿ£)
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 423	Posted - 2014.05.11 09:28:00 - [12] - Quote +1 I think the main point here is make sure we all know what the intentions are, what the ideas are, the vision if you like, so we can decide if that's our thing. Otherwise we may just see a repeat of an incoherent vision where some of us want it to work one way, others another way, and it's one giant squabble. Giant squabbles end up eclipsing the really well thought out and articulate feedback. IMHO, DUST suffered from vision at a low level...not the high level "jets, vehicles, skills, guns" but the low level "so when you say a scout is for assassination, how do you envision it achieving that role" I think knowing this stuff is really important. You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 1977	Posted - 2014.05.11 11:13:00 - [13] - Quote PVPRPG meets MMOFPS? Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!! Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1476	Posted - 2014.05.11 11:14:00 - [14] - Quote Maitue Mae wrote: It's built for the people who have played FPSRPGs like Fallout 3/Newvegas and wanted multiplayer. So I can stealthboy, steal all of a shops wares then do what I want? I'd better leave...
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 965	Posted - 2014.05.11 11:19:00 - [15] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Ryder Azorria wrote: People who were interested in EVE and liked the whole sandbox thing, but either found it to GÇÿintense' or just didn't like the gameplay. FPS fans who like the whole sci-fi thing, and then get hooked on the MMORPG so side of things. People who like shooters but want something deeper, be it consequences, customization, or both. Ultimately, it's probably going to be more of the latter two - people who just want more from an FPS. Answered in the first reply. PS2 was a good MMOFPS, but it delved to far into the FPS while still letting you bring a limitless number of guys too a fight. It turned into a zergmatch, like many FPSes with really huge player counts. I feel legion is going in a patch similar to PS2s, with a limit on people per area and the inclusion of RPG elements that can make a smaller group of good skilled men somewhat superior then a large number of newbs. Not to the extent of DUST, which basically made high SP characters gods with twice the health of lower beings, but enough so a set of skilled guys could hold off a army of newbs if they have good teamwork, good gun game and solid gear. Not quite what I meant by sandbox - I meant the player driven economy, the market, the whole "cycle of destruction" thing.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 480	Posted - 2014.05.11 13:10:00 - [16] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: Luk Manag wrote: And along come casual action junkies who are completely derailed by an asymmetrical battlefield! Where did this asymmetry arise? It turns out that the casual fps fan doesn't think it is fair that someone else has a financial or SP (role options) advantage, and are devastated to see how much time and effort would be required to catch up...never mind that it would only take a few months to achieve near parity with the long term players, that's too great of a barrier for someone who wants a new fps experience every few months. Casual FPS fan? You have no idea ... People played Quake and Counterstrike for years and years without ever needing a new game. Don't confuse the fact that Dice/Activision release new games for profit with the fact that FPS players play where the competition is. if everyone stays in Quake, they stay in Quake, if people migrate then they move to where their competition went. BF 2142 is basically unplayable. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 622	Posted - 2014.05.11 13:40:00 - [17] - Quote Legion is designed for any DUST player that wants more than a slide-show`s worth of frames per second. At the very least!
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 622	Posted - 2014.05.11 13:41:00 - [18] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Shion Typhon wrote: Luk Manag wrote: And along come casual action junkies who are completely derailed by an asymmetrical battlefield! Where did this asymmetry arise? It turns out that the casual fps fan doesn't think it is fair that someone else has a financial or SP (role options) advantage, and are devastated to see how much time and effort would be required to catch up...never mind that it would only take a few months to achieve near parity with the long term players, that's too great of a barrier for someone who wants a new fps experience every few months. Casual FPS fan? You have no idea ... People played Quake and Counterstrike for years and years without ever needing a new game. Don't confuse the fact that Dice/Activision release new games for profit with the fact that FPS players play where the competition is. if everyone stays in Quake, they stay in Quake, if people migrate then they move to where their competition went. BF 2142 is basically unplayable. How is BF2142 unplayable? My brother managed to get EA to give him a brand new code for the game that worked on Origin (which surprised me) and not only that, there are still a good 5 or 10 servers still up and playing daily.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 480	Posted - 2014.05.11 21:58:00 - [19] - Quote ANON Cerberus wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Shion Typhon wrote: Luk Manag wrote: And along come casual action junkies who are completely derailed by an asymmetrical battlefield! Where did this asymmetry arise? It turns out that the casual fps fan doesn't think it is fair that someone else has a financial or SP (role options) advantage, and are devastated to see how much time and effort would be required to catch up...never mind that it would only take a few months to achieve near parity with the long term players, that's too great of a barrier for someone who wants a new fps experience every few months. Casual FPS fan? You have no idea ... People played Quake and Counterstrike for years and years without ever needing a new game. Don't confuse the fact that Dice/Activision release new games for profit with the fact that FPS players play where the competition is. if everyone stays in Quake, they stay in Quake, if people migrate then they move to where their competition went. BF 2142 is basically unplayable. How is BF2142 unplayable? My brother managed to get EA to give him a brand new code for the game that worked on Origin (which surprised me) and not only that, there are still a good 5 or 10 servers still up and playing daily. I was wrong. Last time I couldn't find any servers...it looks better today. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14883	Posted - 2014.05.11 22:05:00 - [20] - Quote Ever since they moved to origin I havent been able to play any of the games. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 480	Posted - 2014.05.11 22:23:00 - [21] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ever since they moved to origin I havent been able to play any of the games. And the official servers are going down June 30th. www.ea.com/1/service-updates I thought Dust 514 would keep the PS3 going for another 5 years... So I guess I was wrong on that. I'm going to naively hope Dust lives on in Legion for the next Decade. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 367	Posted - 2014.05.11 23:06:00 - [22] - Quote Tl/dr: This isn't as intractable a task as the OP suggests but it is really hard, somewhat new ground, and can easily spiral out of control. Traditional marketing funnels draw and filter large audiences into the subset that will ultimately buy the product or service being offered. In the gaming world that means Getting as many potential players to try the game out (social media, advertising, free-to-play GÇª etc) Having core game-play that appeals to the target audience (e.g. good gun-game for FPS) Implementing mechanisms designed to retain the players as long as possible (e.g. GÇ£Just ten more points and you can unlock the BFGGÇ¥) Of course real game design is a lot more complicated but I think that captures the flavor of the idea. The issue for CCP with Legion is that they seem to want to capture multiple audiences by offering elements of several genres early in the funnel. The PVE elements under discussion are an example: For the FPS player the PVE element provides a GÇ£training groundGÇ¥ where you can get used to weapons and gain experience For RPG players it provides a way to get into the lore of the world and learn the mechanisms of resource management. For PVP players it's a game in itself. The huge challenge, then, is providing a compelling second stage for each of the audiences. Where do the segments go from there? How do they get there? What is the retention strategy? And my biggest issue, how does CCP keep from forcing the segments into parts of the game they don't want while providing them with the game-play and retention mechanisms needed to sustain the game? My initial impression is what we know of current designs could fail in this last goal. As an example, FPS players will have to get involved in salvage and training if they want gear. It's not that simple alternatives aren't available: fighting earns ISK, ISK buys gear. But thats only one combination in one component of the game. That being said, CCP and the Legion team seem like really smart guys that know a lot about designing these kinds of systems GÇô so they may well bring it off. I wanted with this post to point out that there is a path to a solution but there are also a lot of balls to keep in the air and this is the kind of combinatorial problem that can get out of control fast. It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3375	Posted - 2014.05.13 07:10:00 - [23] - Quote Marking this for possible inclusion in my index. Great feedback, I've been meaning to talk about this for a while now. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
4447 ZionTCD 978	Posted - 2014.05.13 12:18:00 - [24] - Quote For PC gamers who care about immersion "graphics", oh and tree? Troll, For lifeGÇª But maybe a dragon, uh a bigger dragon.


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