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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2150
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Posted - 2014.05.05 22:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
(NOTE:before reading this, know this: this is what I understood from the keynote. No hard feelings, k?)
Just watched the first part of the progression keynote for Dust, and I kept on thinking to myself two things:
1: This is counterproductive
2: This doesn't solve much of the problem as far as noobs getting stomped by pros
Now, before you just stop reading, understand this: I only want the best for the game's future (I personally love the idea of Legion). And don't worry; I'm going to keep on explaining, and will say how I'd fix NPE (as that's what you're essentially trying to do I assume)
Firstly, this is counterproductive, as it limits freedom rather than increases it. Why? Well, I'll use myself as an example:
I'm a Gal Scout. Anyone who knows me knows that (I'm also a pilot, but that info is not needed). The most common weapons I use is a shotty, and a Ion Pistol. But what if neither is in the Scout tree? Say the Ion Pistol is in the Assault, and the shotty is in the Logi (just go along with it, trust me you'll understand  ). What if I don't want to skill into either tree?
Well, looks like I'm ******, and have to if I want to make a character that I want to make, right?
It basically limits anyone wanting to make a specific fit that is possible. And the only way to get that thing is by going down a specific tree and getting it. That in my opinion is a horrible idea.
Secondly, this idea is to better teach noobs the roles so they won't get stomped as hard. Well, regardless, they'll get stomped just as hard, they will just better understand why they got stomped hard. Vets will almost always have more skill and SP against a noob, so those two match ups will never go down well.
With that said, this whole idea is great in that you guys see that the NPE is a real issue and that we run on a very confusing system for new people. But how do you make it to where it makes more sense? The Academy 2.0
At the beginning of the game, you'd do something along the lines of IWS's tutorial, and then you would be shipped off to the Academy, where you learn how New Eden works, how to make a living, and how all the interfaces work. You could have a sort of classroom type deal for it, where a teacher would teach about how everything works, and there would be a class for each thing. At the end of the Academy, a test of some sorts would be given, and rewards could be given of varying degrees if the player does good at them (At any time the player could take the test and just go, or even come back). Also, the player should be directed to a rookie chat channel specifically for Dust, and could be further helped.
Another thing that would help is by giving more tools to do than just NPC PVP contracts, FW, and PC. If there is much more things to do that reward better that a vet can easily do (FW takes a long time to load and has terrible rewards, and PC only can be done by people once a day per map, and there's only so many maps), as well as more things for noobs to do (arenas just for noobs, some for vets, and some for all, same for tourneys) and open world with security levels, I bet the stomping will be a lot less severe.
That's all of my problems with the keynote, but I have questions about how the BPO's will work:
First off, will vehicles work the same as dropsuits, as far as the hull being a BPO, and the rest is found/paid for?
Second, how would we obtain these BPO's? would they just appear? That would be kind of weird.
That's all. Thanks if you read this!
Peace, Godin
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2154
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
bump
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2154
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:The skill tree is still young and will probably be iterated on. Feedback is good (don't get me wrong) but don't feel like its all completely set in stone.
CCP Z already said in one of those roundtables (on MPX youtube channel) they are discussing exactly what you are worried about (weapons in other trees) and looking at solutions to that.
Also, pros stomping noobs, his presentation was all about tiercide and meta restricted matchmaking. They won't be perfect, of course, but 1000000000x better than matchmaking in Dust.
That doesn't stop vets with lots of money from stomping noobs in hi or losec in the open world parts.........
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2154
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:You know the chances the shotty not being in the scout tree and a pistol is like.... Impossible?
Anyways there may be a tool added to alleviate the need to drill down into another tree to get it. Its up to CCP Z to make the full post describing the whole system.
It was an example. I told you to go along with it. Stop trying to troll me :P
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2154
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 20:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aker Ghaal wrote:"A wild Aker appears" Ello Godin! I just finished reading your post and honestly I agree fully ! I have no understanding as to why they would promote the idea of sandbox based game play when they actively reinforces the contrary with systems like the one described. It boggles my mind honestly, Since when did limiting the choices of players progression help a sandbox game. Most of the time the best kind of gameplay in said games are when you find unexpected results with unexpected combinations, or in this case a dropsuit used for an unintended purpose with unexpected results. Imo they should look less at systems used in games such as skyrim in terms of progression.Considering that game pretty much botched the whole progression going from RPG systems centering around the idea of choice and specialization. To a more fool proof system with limited possibilities where most of the options were predetermined with the so called perk system ... which is just as the planned system of progression/fitting and dropsuit mechanics of the so called Legion. All in all I would rather see them reinforce roles trough bonuses as encouragement to use a particular setup I.e a Minnie Assualt suit that gets a Stam & shield regen bonus and a tied weapon bonus to said suit / Light weapon. Combined with a system such as the ISIS system in EVE; This combination would have all the necessary info for a newberry to understand the basic progression and what to spec into after they have tried out some equipment. TLDR; IMO New system is poorly thought out with huge ramifications to the choice in the game in many aspects ( Sanbox gameplay will be hurt the most). Would be better if they encouraged players to skill into certain combinations of equipment trough bonuses combined with a system like the ISIS feature in eve, that way the game will retain the fresh RPG mechanics at the same time as new players will be guided trough easy and manageable systems! "Aker used wall of text ... not very effective" "Aker faints"
I see what you did there Thanks for agreeing with me
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2157
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 21:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aker Ghaal wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Aker Ghaal wrote:"A wild Aker appears" Ello Godin! I just finished reading your post and honestly I agree fully ! I have no understanding as to why they would promote the idea of sandbox based game play when they actively reinforces the contrary with systems like the one described. It boggles my mind honestly, Since when did limiting the choices of players progression help a sandbox game. Most of the time the best kind of gameplay in said games are when you find unexpected results with unexpected combinations, or in this case a dropsuit used for an unintended purpose with unexpected results. Imo they should look less at systems used in games such as skyrim in terms of progression.Considering that game pretty much botched the whole progression going from RPG systems centering around the idea of choice and specialization. To a more fool proof system with limited possibilities where most of the options were predetermined with the so called perk system ... which is just as the planned system of progression/fitting and dropsuit mechanics of the so called Legion. All in all I would rather see them reinforce roles trough bonuses as encouragement to use a particular setup I.e a Minnie Assualt suit that gets a Stam & shield regen bonus and a tied weapon bonus to said suit / Light weapon. Combined with a system such as the ISIS system in EVE; This combination would have all the necessary info for a newberry to understand the basic progression and what to spec into after they have tried out some equipment. TLDR; IMO New system is poorly thought out with huge ramifications to the choice in the game in many aspects ( Sanbox gameplay will be hurt the most). Would be better if they encouraged players to skill into certain combinations of equipment trough bonuses combined with a system like the ISIS feature in eve, that way the game will retain the fresh RPG mechanics at the same time as new players will be guided trough easy and manageable systems! "Aker used wall of text ... not very effective" "Aker faints" I see what you did there Thanks for agreeing with me Hehe! Glad to hear it mate! Cheers! I just think it is one of the more hot topics quite frankly, considering for me it might be a deal breaker ... along with other things haha!
Same here 
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2157
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 21:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aker Ghaal wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:You know the chances the shotty not being in the scout tree and a pistol is like.... Impossible? I know it is not towards me ... ah I will give it a shot! They will probably tweak the roles however I still don't see a point of doing it since I always thought it was the lack of info regarding skills/ progression as well as the SP divide/ lack of tiercide that caused the progression to be somewhat ... a muddled affair. Limiting the player never truly serves a purpose other than eliminating the need to actually "teach" players the way to play the game. It is the same as getting popups every 5 seconds in the tutorial on how to play and what to do it rather than to device good sections/systems and mechanics that "teaches" the player on how to play the game. ... Or I might just be an idiot, who knows ?!?
He is referring to my example. Apparently, this is normal IWS (taking everything literal, even though it is cleared up that it isn't). Don't worry :D
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2157
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 21:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aker Ghaal wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Aker Ghaal wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:You know the chances the shotty not being in the scout tree and a pistol is like.... Impossible? I know it is not towards me ... ah I will give it a shot! They will probably tweak the roles however I still don't see a point of doing it since I always thought it was the lack of info regarding skills/ progression as well as the SP divide/ lack of tiercide that caused the progression to be somewhat ... a muddled affair. Limiting the player never truly serves a purpose other than eliminating the need to actually "teach" players the way to play the game. It is the same as getting popups every 5 seconds in the tutorial on how to play and what to do it rather than to device good sections/systems and mechanics that "teaches" the player on how to play the game. ... Or I might just be an idiot, who knows ?!? He is referring to my example. Apparently, this is normal IWS (taking everything literal, even though it is cleared up that it isn't). Don't worry :D Yeah true true :C I just think it is odd considering they want to emphasis immersion,sandbox and progression yet using means to counteract most of those said points by using simple and standard means of game design. Those three topics have been what I have been trying to provide feedback the most to sadly I didn't have enough time to finish them.
Well, they could also as you said add the ISIS system into Dust to help guide the way.
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2157
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 21:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Another bass ackwards design choice
IMO if you want to change the skill tree you need to consolidate things IE instead of separate skills for say RR, SR, Swarms, Magsec, and the bolt pistol you have a blanket Caldari Weapons skill or Amarr Dropsuits skill at least for unlock the things to use and giving a general useful skill with other specialized skills for roles being just bonuses and not unlocking things
That would make unlocking everything incredibly short or long.
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2160
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:The skill tree is still young and will probably be iterated on. Feedback is good (don't get me wrong) but don't feel like its all completely set in stone.
CCP Z already said in one of those roundtables (on MPX youtube channel) they are discussing exactly what you are worried about (weapons in other trees) and looking at solutions to that.
Also, pros stomping noobs, his presentation was all about tiercide and meta restricted matchmaking. They won't be perfect, of course, but 1000000000x better than matchmaking in Dust. That doesn't stop vets with lots of money from stomping noobs in hi or losec in the open world parts......... A lot of the details still arent available on exactly what they plan for the high and low sec open world mechanics but I suspect it will go something like high sec has no pvp, friendly fire completely disabled while low sec is friendly fire all day (and open world pvp as a result). What does this mean? Yeah man, low sec is NOT gonna be fair. Its open world in the EVE universe. With respect to 'fairness' in low sec open world pvp? The correct answer to that would be "HTFU "
I highly doubt that.
If that's the case, why doesn't EVE have it? Maybe because it's too un-New Edeny?
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