DUST Search - CPM0 Betrayed Us.

TheGoebel wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

You guys are meant to be representing the community. Part of the problem was probably that CCP made it hard for you to meet that responsibility. There was probably also something you could have done but didn't see at the time. I don't know how significant either side of that was. That's for you to know, and live with.

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

We went through the same thought processes and discussed options with concequences of their future impacts and we knew that quitting back then would have probably made cpm 0 the last cpm and that would not be absolutely fair to the rest of the community. Also we realized we probably overplayed the 'we are going to quit card.' A card we mostly played over 'why even have a cpm' in the past when cpm was at its weakest state which has probably caused a level of mistrust between the cpm and various members of the company. Just like in real life politics every person has thier own opininion and even if you convince the people you think are in charge, the people in the majority it only takes a very few folks to override the best laid out plans.

CPM is in that very weird position where saying 'we told you so' in a rather immature manner is so tempting but the CPM realizes we're at the critical point of being legitimized as a needed organization. We had a half day summit yesterday and you cannot belive how much progress was made for empowering the community. If those talks turn into green lights you will see the impact soon enough and we're having another full day summit today.

The fact we didnt quit as allowed us to help shape things up for legion and possibly and fallback for dust as well such as the ewn progression system was made under advisement of the CPM as the original model presented to teh cpm would have infurated everyone including the most die hard of fanboys for the game

I don't quite understand the word 'possibly' here. I think its because I don't have trust in CCP. Anything that hasn't happened yet can not be predicted. The effort IWS and CPM have put in, have they beared product? Do we have tangible evidence that the CPM has been any sort of guiding force for CCP? Please don't cite any of the reactionary movements from over this weekend as I feel 5000 people have participated in those actions, not just CPM.

You've fought for the expansion of the powers of CPM. But right now, does that matter? Dust will still need player feedback while it sits on the back burner. I would hazard to say that CPM doesn't need to exist for that. CPM could be helpful in Legion but it wouldn't be elected by the playerbase from that game.

Why then, should the CPM continue?


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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14683	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:10:00 - [1] - Quote The lack of information is disturbing with this one. Twitter, Dev Trackers, IRC, pod casts, and some social circles are your best friends. Can't be arsed to do a summary though Ill let a blue explain it all. Ill put it this way 100% of your claims are generated by your own fear and not facts and rather the lack of facts that most of which are still fomulating. There are facts out there pay attention to those in the comming weeks before you decide to throw everything under the bus. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14691	Posted - 2014.05.04 22:16:00 - [2] - Quote I would like to add that in retrospec resigning back then as a whole would have probably been the most shelfish thing the cpm could have done. Took a bit of convincing internally to keep what we could onboard. Caz was an unfourtunate loss I would have loved to continued to work with him on the transition. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14692	Posted - 2014.05.04 22:21:00 - [3] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: At the very least, if nothing else, resigning would have shown the community that you had some integrity. its debatable. Integredity is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. In analogy the cpm is holding on the rope between the community and a bottomless pit and I can never forgive myself if I let go of that rope of my own voilation. As ex military I have seen far too many folks ways of life ending because the lack of integredity; sometimes a job, sometimes a limb, somtimes a life all because they or somone else did not do that one extra step; not standing that post; and not seeing something through to completion. Skipping steps; quitting post, and abandoning supervision is simply not my style. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14695	Posted - 2014.05.04 23:57:00 - [4] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Roy Ventus wrote: So. You would break legal contract over that? I'm sorry but that's not legit. People aren't dying. The government isn't issuing some conspiracy. There's no schools burning. They had other ways to try to get them to listen. They could've just resigned like someone else said. If it was as simple as the NDA that they gave us back in closed beta, then sure, but I'm more than sure there's some actual heavy penalties here. I'd break NDA over someone directly and willfully ripping people off when I'm meant to be representing those people, yes. And I'd have solid legal grounds to argue against any penalties they tried to enforce too. The recent Aurum sales were using false advertising because they were still promoting the game as having new content coming to PS3, and they were still maintaining the promises made at E3 for DUST to be coming to PS4 through lies of omission. They told us what was going to happen, went back on their plans and started work on something different, and actively avoided telling us so they could gouge people for more money. The fact that Sony have been refunding people for purchases made in those sales supports this argument as well. That fact makes any enforcement of the NDA on those intentional lies of omission illegal. You can't enforce a contract which requires a person to break other laws to satisfy its conditions. The contract is null and void at that point, unless it includes a clause that maintains the contract EXCEPT THE PART WHICH WOULD BE ILLEGAL. So even if they included such a clause, the NDA would only apply to things which aren't required in order to reveal that CCP were trying to gouge us for money. So yes, I would have absolutely no reservations in "breaking" a no-longer-legally-binding contract. None at all. NDA does not cover a companies responsibilities. Just yours. So lets rewind and play this out. You hear from CCP about PC version; you spill the beans on the forums and quit (or you get blackslited; order doesnt matter most likely your post would have been instantly sanitized) Chances are you're going to be positing in a highly similar manner as you are today; in this rather enraged state of being betrayed. Community Rages. CCP comes out with more offical and more up to date details and makes you look stupid as part of thier damage control and they would do it. And at that point watch how quickly the community turns on you Watch the developers abandon the entire community at all levels as you broke thier trsut And after you destroyed the cpm; any future elections; councils; or isd programs; and the game in one feel swoop as likely any future game cannot seem to surivive well without developers trusting the playerbase. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14699	Posted - 2014.05.05 00:43:00 - [5] - Quote You also have to realize I cannot go around breaking NDA contracts; that would lead to my own loss of my own top secret clearance. FBI takes that **** seriously. Also if the NDA was that insignificant why didnt Caz spill the beans? he resigned and yet didn't say anything. I dont think that makes him hero material either. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14717	Posted - 2014.05.05 08:29:00 - [6] - Quote TheGoebel wrote: Edit: Post above me get to it first. Curse my slow typing. Still, the point remains the same. I couldn't sleep, this thread is bothering me and I have yet to post anything on any forum related to this issue but I couldn't shake this. I am happy the CPM didn't break NDA. The NDA is an integral part of what makes a construction like the CPM/CSM work. That being said, I think if the whole of CPM resigned at the same time. namely after being shown legion, no NDA would be broken and the community would see the red flag. That's a bit sensationalist though, if the CPM resigned how could they help CCP do some community management, release news of this appropriately? I in no way believe CPM/CSM members had any hand in the Legion announcement being the Dust keynote. But you know what you can do? You can resign now. As CPM. you haven't been listened to, there's no reason to believe you will be listened to and the most effective use of your position is to make a news story out of it. Its your call, but I can tell you from here, it would be the best thing for the current council members to do. Thank you for painting a picture that is more accurate. We went through the same thought processes and discussed options with concequences of their future impacts and we knew that quitting back then would have probably made cpm 0 the last cpm and that would not be absolutely fair to the rest of the community. Also we realized we probably overplayed the 'we are going to quit card.' A card we mostly played over 'why even have a cpm' in the past when cpm was at its weakest state which has probably caused a level of mistrust between the cpm and various members of the company. Just like in real life politics every person has thier own opininion and even if you convince the people you think are in charge, the people in the majority it only takes a very few folks to override the best laid out plans. CPM is in that very weird position where saying 'we told you so' in a rather immature manner is so tempting but the CPM realizes we're at the critical point of being legitimized as a needed organization. We had a half day summit yesterday and you cannot belive how much progress was made for empowering the community. If those talks turn into green lights you will see the impact soon enough and we're having another full day summit today. @Garret While you may have held several NDAs you probably never had Top Secret clearance. It only takes a breach of confidential complaint to pernamently revoke the clearance which shows up on public records it was revoked and that the difference between having a job with a clearance and a job and job without is rather significant in terms of wage and options. FBI and NSA headed up my investigation because I was foreign born of a non american citizen so the grilling was extra tough on me when I first got it. This is nearly as bad of a record to obtain in the states as being a federal criminal. You can't scrub that mark off at all and they're eventually going to find out if they dont at first. Losing my security clearance would disallow me from working in medical because of the HiPPA, any branch of government setcors, and most technical jobs because its part of both national and company security most of the time. Also anyonomous options? LOWL; you're talking about the same company that can nail an eve botter's unaffiliated alt account made under every precaution avoiding being associated with his bots at all. A simple browse through some of the botter forums is sometimes all the entertainment I need. So what really makes you think a simple human powered investigation would not reveal who the anon is? CCP's IA and Security is a rather scary team of people because I am familar with thier capabilities. Also I have to say your talks about how you would break the NDA means that likely you can kiss every and any chance of voulenteer work, ever running for anyting with CCP ever again. FInally we had thought and measured out the concequences instead of acting out of passionate knee jerking. Doing anything you suggested was measured to have the lowest or reversal of impact; and not helped anything move forward. There is no way you can convince me or the rest of the CPM at this point an time that NDA breaching would have ever resulting in anything good. and bottom line; there was about 6 people who claimed to have come across evidence of legion's nature. Not a single one was listened to. Free beers amongst them. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14720	Posted - 2014.05.05 09:31:00 - [7] - Quote Caz there people are asking for the whole ass you only did half of the ass and you and I both know that there was no way in hell any of us could deliver on the whole ass. Also thank you for disputing Garret's claim on how useless the NDA and proving my point it was something we couldn't just break on a whim. Also measuring likes is like measuring KDR nearly effing useless as the video game stats. As for the getting a life advise I suggest you follow it much more closely; you're obsessing over this a bit too much. I told you as a friend to not hurt yourself over this and you are doing just that. Don't hurt yourself any further. Because I was fine not mentioning you at all until you started attacking me on various outlets. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14721	Posted - 2014.05.05 09:39:00 - [8] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Caz there people are asking for the whole ass you only did half of the ass and you and I both know that there was no way in hell any of us could deliver on the whole ass. Also thank you for disputing Garret's claim on how useless the NDA and proving my point it was something we couldn't just break on a whim. Also measuring likes is like measuring KDR. You missed the shut it, dont ever mention me again did you ? And for that ? oooooooooooooooooook No; Garret's point cant be hit by the person he's aiming at. It can only be hit by people who side with him. So thank you for proving how stupid this whole conversation is. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14722	Posted - 2014.05.05 09:54:00 - [9] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Caz there people are asking for the whole ass you only did half of the ass and you and I both know that there was no way in hell any of us could deliver on the whole ass. Also thank you for disputing Garret's claim on how useless the NDA and proving my point it was something we couldn't just break on a whim. Also measuring likes is like measuring KDR. You missed the shut it, dont ever mention me again did you ? And for that ? oooooooooooooooooook No; Garret's point cant be hit by the person he's aiming at. It can only be hit by people who side with him. So thank you for proving how stupid this whole conversation is. You only see what pleases you dont you ? So the whole point here is about NDA ? I really dont think so. Nor does 99% of the people out there. But hey, keep living the dream, one day you'll be praised for your action coz damn u deserv it girl ! You only see what pleases you human. Seeing the forums in turmoil; licking up the tears like some basalisk and stroking your own self inflicted ego at every negative post about dust 514 that crops up and your only goal is to intice more tears because it is how you fester. You're no hero, you're no saviour, you're no messiah so stop selling yourself so high becuase when that evaporates the fall is pretty hard. Also don't do anything stupid. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14722	Posted - 2014.05.05 09:55:00 - [10] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: WhatWhat DJINN TheButt wrote: Your legacy isn't going to be your investment in taking notes at meetings or engaging with the playerbase, it's going to be walking into hostile situations and just shitting everywhere because you're just fundamentally broken as a person. But dude ! he has 14K likes ! And he frakin knows DEVS !!! Only 8 of those likes are from devs mostly CCP Frame. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14722	Posted - 2014.05.05 10:00:00 - [11] - Quote WhatWhat DJINN TheButt wrote: "Hey remember when Caz stuck to the NDA but couldn't abide by certain CCP decisions so walked away and IWS decided it was a good time to blurt out 'HE'S NO HERO, HE'S A QUITTER' or similar, knowing that Caz's right of reply was diminished by the NDA. WHAT A STAND UP FELLOW." I remember when I was happy to not ever mention Cazderon ever again because of the whole legion thing getting revealed and I no longer have to deceive about what he was doing. Until he opened up twitter and called butted into a conversation between me and grit and called my statement cow dung despite the statement is true. Who doesnt want a time machine at tihs point to go back and have things redone proper instead of goofed ball. How much more horrible my and many other's posting would be without the edit button? How terrible the world would be if you where disallowed to make mistakes. The world would be devoid of humans at that point. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14722	Posted - 2014.05.05 10:02:00 - [12] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Lol really ? You're gonna be that guy ? i mean, "You HUMAN". like for real ? UBERLOL Your move, Human. It's all you need to realize it is what you and I are. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14722	Posted - 2014.05.05 10:07:00 - [13] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: WhatWhat DJINN TheButt wrote: "Hey remember when Caz stuck to the NDA but couldn't abide by certain CCP decisions so walked away and IWS decided it was a good time to blurt out 'HE'S NO HERO, HE'S A QUITTER' or similar, knowing that Caz's right of reply was diminished by the NDA. WHAT A STAND UP FELLOW." I remember when I was happy to not ever mention Cazderon ever again because of the whole legion thing getting revealed and I no longer have to deceive about what he was doing. Until he opened up twitter and called butted into a conversation between me and grit and called my statement cow dung despite the statement is true. Who doesnt want a time machine at tihs point to go back and have things redone proper instead of goofed ball. How much more horrible my and many other's posting would be without the edit button? How terrible the world would be if you where disallowed to make mistakes. The world would be devoid of humans at that point. I dont even understand what you're saying anymore. Did you just extrapolate stuff to the general state of the world ? Poiint being i dont give a rat's ass about what people rememeber\think of me. Hell, if i'm forgotten i wont give a damn f**k as long as i feel right about myself. And the people i played with. Which i will still play with. You obviously care; you're posting still. I mean why is WTF not shutdown like you said it should be. A npc corp should be by your name by now. I don't play with your friends. I am certainly not trying to steal them. Your friends are yours and if they want to continue to play dust that is thier right. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14722	Posted - 2014.05.05 10:09:00 - [14] - Quote WhatWhat DJINN TheButt wrote: (He actually seems to believe he's laying down some sick burns. Everyone just play along.) OMG CAZ GOT TOLD. Your sarcasm is duely noted. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14732	Posted - 2014.05.05 19:52:00 - [15] - Quote @ Garret Blacknova Thank you for your thought out rational and reply. As always you're entitled to your opinion and I wont do anything to have it held against you as people under emotion do things they regret later. I know its been difficult the last few days but CCP needs to come forward and start fixing things on thier own. I will be busy for a few days doing some related work so CCP should have room to step in and do things. Things I am expecting them to do for you guys. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14732	Posted - 2014.05.05 20:04:00 - [16] - Quote TheGoebel wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: You guys are meant to be representing the community. Part of the problem was probably that CCP made it hard for you to meet that responsibility. There was probably also something you could have done but didn't see at the time. I don't know how significant either side of that was. That's for you to know, and live with. Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We went through the same thought processes and discussed options with concequences of their future impacts and we knew that quitting back then would have probably made cpm 0 the last cpm and that would not be absolutely fair to the rest of the community. Also we realized we probably overplayed the 'we are going to quit card.' A card we mostly played over 'why even have a cpm' in the past when cpm was at its weakest state which has probably caused a level of mistrust between the cpm and various members of the company. Just like in real life politics every person has thier own opininion and even if you convince the people you think are in charge, the people in the majority it only takes a very few folks to override the best laid out plans. CPM is in that very weird position where saying 'we told you so' in a rather immature manner is so tempting but the CPM realizes we're at the critical point of being legitimized as a needed organization. We had a half day summit yesterday and you cannot belive how much progress was made for empowering the community. If those talks turn into green lights you will see the impact soon enough and we're having another full day summit today. The fact we didnt quit as allowed us to help shape things up for legion and possibly and fallback for dust as well such as the ewn progression system was made under advisement of the CPM as the original model presented to teh cpm would have infurated everyone including the most die hard of fanboys for the game I don't quite understand the word 'possibly' here. I think its because I don't have trust in CCP. Anything that hasn't happened yet can not be predicted. The effort IWS and CPM have put in, have they beared product? Do we have tangible evidence that the CPM has been any sort of guiding force for CCP? Please don't cite any of the reactionary movements from over this weekend as I feel 5000 people have participated in those actions, not just CPM. You've fought for the expansion of the powers of CPM. But right now, does that matter? Dust will still need player feedback while it sits on the back burner. I would hazard to say that CPM doesn't need to exist for that. CPM could be helpful in Legion but it wouldn't be elected by the playerbase from that game. Why then, should the CPM continue? Becuase nothing is gauranteed at this time. I dont want to say anything that basically confirms anything and its so easy to use grey words that reader base can translate to white or black if you get the drift. Legion for all I know could get red light instead of green lit. I cannot comment on the chances because I am not in those frevrent flurry of meetings. And despite Legion being out in the open the closed doors is NDAing any and every speculation so it does me or any of you any good to declare Legion's state. It is best to let CCP do that. As for the CPM perception of power its very skewed and the only thing I will cite is that the CSM took 5 years to get where it is. The expectations of doing that in a year is massively rediculous with both Uprising 1.0 and Legion thrown on top of the current members. CPM expansion of responsibility is not a fight done alone; members of CCP have been participating as much as they could. Ultimately the CPM should continue because Dust 514 is still running; there are players still playing and there are no plans to shut dust 514 anytime soon. An election for fresh members is certainly needed. They are still the best link between players and developers, they are still the best reality check CCP has well before the idea explodes on the community like it has, and they are still the best voices of the players when CCP needs it the most. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14734	Posted - 2014.05.05 23:10:00 - [17] - Quote Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA I am ex military and NEVER , ever did I hear about a VIDEO GAME needing top secret clearance from DIA, NSA, NRO, N DIA, M DIA. I was going to add a lot more in this edit but a car bomb just went off a few blocks from here so I am going to go and have a look at the firefight and to see what Cartel it is this time doing the ruckus........ Talk to the sig. My previous job fixing high tech airplanes needed the top secret clearance. There are hundreds of ways of losing that clearance. Breaking a NDA can be amongst them. Driving drunk and getting arrested is another. NSA and FBI where brought in for my interview when I had to take it most of it involved my interaction with other countries. DHLS was not that powerful yet administratively. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14734	Posted - 2014.05.05 23:28:00 - [18] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Clever guys. Because obviously, as someone involved in the CPM for DUST 514, the only possible thing IWS could have been doing his entire life is this one videogame. So logically, that has to be the source of and reason for his top secret clearance. Just because SOME of us live our entire lives in the joys of gaming and our beloved forums, doesn't mean that holds true for everyone in the community - even those who are supposed to be responsible while they're here. +1 CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked