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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.04 17:14:00 -
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I've dealt with NDAs before.
If this was me, I would have been saying "screw NDA, tell the players or I will" as soon as they started pushing AUR sales onto us while KNOWING the game was about to see a MASSIVE change that negates many people's spending. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.04 20:23:00 -
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I-Shayz-I wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:I've dealt with NDAs before.
If this was me, I would have been saying "screw NDA, tell the players or I will" as soon as they started pushing AUR sales onto us while KNOWING the game was about to see a MASSIVE change that negates many people's spending. If I had been on the CPM I would have already known that the DEVs have good intentions for us players heading towards Legion. If you had been on CPM, you would also already have known that pushing Aurum sales while DUST is being abandoned was a horrible decision. I'm not saying they were wrong because they didn't INSTANTLY tell us about this the moment they heard Legion was being worked on. I'm saying they were wrong because THEY KNEW CCP WERE SCREWING CUSTOMERS. Up until the announcement, we were ALL being led to believe that DUST was going to continue on its 10 year plan and was in the process of moving to PS4. NOT moving to PC, which many players DON'T have up to date for gaming, but PS4, which a fair number of DUST players have bought, some specifically because we were looking forward to the next-gen version ON THE CONSOLE WE HAD BEEN TOLD IT WAS COMING TO.
Letting our characters continue on a new game is small comfort when we've already invested time and money into the wrong platform UNDER THE ADVICE OF CCP, and getting upset with people who SHOULD have warned us earlier is perfectly understandable. When they not only knew in advance, AND knew about the sales when they were happening, it was offensive and wrong for them not to leak that information.
Quote:I would have also known that Legion is hardly anything but a concept at this point, and that anything they release at Fanfest could possibly never happen. And this makes it even more baffling that they've transferred THE MAJORITY OF DUST'S DEV TEAM TO THE PROJECT instead of keeping the game running properly with competent support.
Quote:And finally I would also know that Dust 514 will still be worked on and updated for months to come because of the way I would see the dedication to Dust that the DEVs still have. Most of which "updates" and "work" will be minor bug fixes and cleaning up the messes that have been months overdue for such treatment, and a large part of the delays is probably THE FACT THAT MOST OF THE TEAM ISN'T WORKING ON THE GAME ANY MORE.
Quote:However, CCP probably didn't expect a reaction like this. They revealed it in a way that was supposed to make us surprised and excited, but they worded it and explained it in a way that made many players very angry. They also did it without any explanation as to the things that us players wanted to know in the first place, and without a reassuring gesture.
Miscommunication, not being prepared for all possible outcomes, and not communicating effectively led to what has happened. Let's just be glad they actually gave us some more detailed answers within a few hours rather than days or weeks. They released it in the most incompetent way they possibly could have. They gouged paying customers in a manner that can only be seen as deliberate if you're willing to assume they have any competence as a business. I mean, I suppose there is a plausible-ish argument that every single staff member at CCP is completely insane. I seriously doubt it, even with this and Incarna to support the theory. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.04 22:58:00 -
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Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Mojo XXXIII wrote:At the very least, if nothing else, resigning would have shown the community that you had some integrity. its debatable. Integredity is doing the right thing when nobody is looking. In analogy the cpm is holding on the rope between the community and a bottomless pit and I can never forgive myself if I let go of that rope of my own voilation. As ex military I have seen far too many folks ways of life ending because the lack of integredity; sometimes a job, sometimes a limb, somtimes a life all because they or somone else did not do that one extra step; not standing that post; and not seeing something through to completion. Skipping steps; quitting post, and abandoning supervision is simply not my style. "Integrity is doing the right thing when nobody is looking." (corrected spelling)
When we didn't know about the MASSIVE change in direction that Legion is going to be, and you did, we "weren't looking" at what you were doing. When CCP knowingly encouraged players to help fund the vision we had previously been told about WHILE KNOWING IT WAS NO LONGER PART OF THE PLAN, we "weren't looking" for you to step forward with your information.
We, the people you were supposed to be representing, NEEDED YOU TO "DO THE RIGHT THING" AND TELL US WE WERE BEING DECEIVED.
You did NOTHING.
By your own definition, you DID NOT act with integrity in this case.
Clear, unambiguous statement: "If you don't either cancel/reverse the sale or go public with Legion IMMEDIATELY, I'm breaking NDA"
Follow through if change doesn't happen.
CPM failed us. It's that simple. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.04 23:25:00 -
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Roy Ventus wrote:So. You would break legal contract over that? I'm sorry but that's not legit. People aren't dying. The government isn't issuing some conspiracy. There's no schools burning. They had other ways to try to get them to listen. They could've just resigned like someone else said. If it was as simple as the NDA that they gave us back in closed beta, then sure, but I'm more than sure there's some actual heavy penalties here. I'd break NDA over someone directly and willfully ripping people off when I'm meant to be representing those people, yes.
And I'd have solid legal grounds to argue against any penalties they tried to enforce too. The recent Aurum sales were using false advertising because they were still promoting the game as having new content coming to PS3, and they were still maintaining the promises made at E3 for DUST to be coming to PS4 through lies of omission. They told us what was going to happen, went back on their plans and started work on something different, and actively avoided telling us so they could gouge people for more money. The fact that Sony have been refunding people for purchases made in those sales supports this argument as well.
That fact makes any enforcement of the NDA on those intentional lies of omission illegal. You can't enforce a contract which requires a person to break other laws to satisfy its conditions. The contract is null and void at that point, unless it includes a clause that maintains the contract EXCEPT THE PART WHICH WOULD BE ILLEGAL. So even if they included such a clause, the NDA would only apply to things which aren't required in order to reveal that CCP were trying to gouge us for money.
So yes, I would have absolutely no reservations in "breaking" a no-longer-legally-binding contract. None at all. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 00:13:00 -
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Iron Wolf Saber wrote:NDA does not cover a companies responsibilities. Just yours. It also covers what rights they have in response to your violation of the NDA. There are things which they don't have the right to do as a matter of routine, and which you could reasonably object to in normal circumstances, which they could do in response to your actions.
And that doesn't negate any of what I said anyway.
Quote:You hear from CCP about PC version; you spill the beans on the forums and quit (or you get blackslited; order doesnt matter most likely your post would have been instantly sanitized) You spill the beans in direct messages, either through the in-game messaging system or PSN itself to circumvent CCP's control, to a few people you know in the community AS WELL AS posting the news on the forums.
Just making a post that's going to vanish near-instantly isn't enough. You know that wouldn't work already.
Quote:Chances are you're going to be positing in a highly similar manner as you are today; in this rather enraged state of being betrayed.
Community Rages. That's not what I'd expect. It's exactly what I expected once the current situation broke, but if, BEFORE the sales, or THE MOMENT THE NEWS OF THE SALES WAS BROKEN, we were told "the plan is to move to PC, keep that in mind when spending your money"... I'm not seeing rage over that. The LACK of that information BEFORE AND DURING the sales is the main reason people are raging.
Quote:CCP comes out with more offical and more up to date details and makes you look stupid as part of thier damage control and they would do it.
And at that point watch how quickly the community turns on you If you spilled that they're working on a PC build in preference to PS4, unless they change plans, they can't make you "look stupid" for telling us exactly that, and if they DO change their plans, well, you should remember something about "integrity" and "doing the right thing" here...
Quote:Watch the developers abandon the entire community at all levels as you broke thier trsut
And after you destroyed the cpm; any future elections; councils; or isd programs; and the game in one feel swoop as likely any future game cannot seem to surivive well without developers trusting the playerbase. The developers need to trust the playerbase, true. But the players need to be able to trust the developers too. And with this move, CCP have proven that we CAN'T trust them to act morally. And you as a member of the CPM |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 00:19:00 -
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Roy Ventus wrote:Would you be able to actually argue that in court? I'm actually in belief of what you say but I HIGHLY doubt that a team of lawyers wouldn't be able to get them out of it and put the blame on you. There's a LOT of legal precedent for contracts, including NDAs to be voided when the actions required were illegal.
There's also plenty of legal precedent for lies of omission to qualify as false advertising when something has been publicly announced as true then rescinded without a follow-up announcement. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 01:24:00 -
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Iron Wolf Saber wrote:You also have to realize I cannot go around breaking NDA contracts; that would lead to my own loss of my own top secret clearance. FBI takes that **** seriously. With solid legal grounds for an argument that the NDA was invalidated by what they were expecting you to keep secret...
Quote:Also if the NDA was that insignificant why didnt Caz spill the beans? he resigned and yet didn't say anything. I dont think that makes him hero material either. I'm not saying the NDA was insignificant. I'm saying there was a solid argument against it being applicable, AND I'm saying that not breaking it was a mistake. Caz tried harder than you did to get people to pay attention. I don't think he did something heroic by also failing to share the news, but I still think he did more than you.
The sheer fact that you're referring to him and pointing out his failure is an acknowledgement that you were wrong. Thanks for that admission. Now all we need is the apology to go with it. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 01:27:00 -
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WhatWhat DJINN TheButt wrote:Whether I care about IWS's FBI claim or not, he's right in that breaching even a 'trivial' NDA will have consequences outside of the domain it existed in. I ain't giving roles involving confidentiality to anyone who was contractually bound to one thing and did another. There's a viable argument that he WASN'T contractually bound at the point where he should have been breaking the NDA though. It's something that could be argued in court with a fair expectation of success. What CCP were doing was wrong, and letting people know that it was wrong would have been the right thing to do.
Also, as many people have pointed out, there are plenty of ways to leak the news anonymously. ANYONE with that knowledge, CCP staff, CPM, whatever, could have done it, and WOULD HAVE BEEN RIGHT TO DO SO. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 02:08:00 -
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The Robot Devil wrote:They continue to be silent which only serves to hurt us more. Some honesty would go a long way right now but they won't even do that. They really need to look into how they treat their customers and fans because to put it mildly it is crap. As much as I agree with most of what you're saying, that isn't true.
We had Logibro posting here for a while: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=159496&find=unread
He's actually given some constructive answers, and while not always answering the question(s) he's quoting, he IS making an effort and it looks like he's trying to help us to understand how it all went so wrong. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 02:23:00 -
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Michael Arck wrote:The CPM knew about PC before it came out. They KNEW! How is an addition to the game that had been frequently requested, and more importantly, was announced in a timely manner with player involvement in its development process comparable to a change in platform focus that happened months before players were informed about it and involved the developers actively avoiding the topic to mislead us into believing that the change wasn't happening while promoting the sale of in-game items they were using to fund a development which many of the paying players WOULDN'T have wanted to support had they known?
Quote:So what are you saying? The CPM has done nothing different than what they have been doing and what they should be doing. In their position they did what was agreed upon as part of signing. They haven't done anything differently in a situation where they SHOULD have done things differently.
When conditions change, so should your behaviour. You don't go out in the middle of winter wearing a t-shirt and shorts.
Quote:You guys continously pointing fingers instead of acting like mature adults and understanding the other side of the coin aka placing yourself in other people's shoes to come to an understanding. I've been under NDA before multiple times, and I've been in a situation once where I've had contractual obligations that conflicted with what I believed to be right. In that situation, I ignored the contract and did the right thing, and the people I worked for gave me credit for my actions when I explained why I did what I did in spite of the paper they had my signature on.
Quote:It's impossible to even reason with some of you. You didn't get what you want so feel you just been wronged. That's bratty. There are some people who are upset because they wanted the game on PS4 and having it on PC instead is somehow unreasonable. There are MORE people who are upset because CCP blatantly lied to us about the direction they're taking, both in the short term AND the long term, and convinced many of us to invest money in the direction they had promised then turned around to say that money was going to something completely different.
People feel wronged BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN WRONGED.
This announcement was not just poorly-handled. It was OFFENSIVELY handled. |
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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 13:53:00 -
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So after I went to bed, this thread's dramasplosion appears to have continued unabated.
And more importantly, IWS clarified a few things he really SHOULD have been saying instead of starting that "obvious troll is obvious" thread about how other games without a 10-year plan were fine to get sequels instead of the not-promised continuation of the original, so DUST shouldn't be held to its promises just like they weren't held to promises they never made.
Even more importantly still, Caz showed up, and while raging at IWS, backed him up on the most important point (at least what I consider the most important point).
So, disregarding the majority of the epeen match between you two for now, THANK YOU for (finally) actually explaining your side of the situation CLEARLY and PROPERLY.
We now know a bit more about the situation.
Legion announced internally. CPM find out. CPM push VERY HARD for CCP to share this news with the players, but aren't listened to. At least one CPM member looks into the viability of breaking NDA without taking a hit. OPTIONS ARE DISCUSSED WITH MASS RESIGNATION AND BREAKING NDA BOTH SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED.
So, results?
Decision made: Keep arguing right up to Fanfest, but do nothing.
Caz quit, and NOBODY who stayed with CPM thought that maybe you guys could play that card and push his resignation into the limelight?
Having a prominent CPM member quit, and EITHER that person OR the rest of the CPM making a big deal of it would have drawn attention to the "something is very wrong here" side of things. Because SOMETHING WAS VERY WRONG HERE, and now that we know, it's something that we really, REALLY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN EARLIER.
So yes, CPM was right about what they said to CCP. But no, they didn't succeed in their jobs. From the sound of things, they tried. There are a few things I can think of which they COULD have tried and didn't, but they tried.
I'm not removing my past comments, I'm not revoking the position that I personally WOULD break NDA if it was for a good reason, and I'm going to defend the fact that there is legal argument and precedent for contracts like this one to be voided in similar cases. I'm also not going to say that I feel like my frustration at that point was unjustified, or that I was wrong to behave the way I did at the time. I lacked information which was relevant to the situation, and the people who had that information took their sweet time in sharing it. So while I can admit that I was wrong, it wasn't through any fault of my own. Based on the information I had available to me at the time, I feel like my comments in this (and other) threads were justified and relevant to the situation.
So, as much as I wish more had been done, and as much as I wish CCP and the CPM had done things differently, I am willing to accept that this may not be as clear-cut as it looked.
Now the serious things are out of the way, back to IWS and Caz raging at one another. IWS, I specifically pointed out, as you were, that Caz didn't do all he could have done for the situation. Not many of us were pointing to him as an example of what CPM should have done. They were pointing to him and saying "at least he did SOMETHING", while conceding that it didn't achieve much in the grand scheme of things.
All of you talked things over, discussed your options, and did what you thought was best. For Caz, that meant standing down. IWS, for you, it didn't. NEITHER OF YOU has the right to deny the validity of the other's decision. YOU were the ones in a position to do something, WE IN THE COMMUNITY were not. I wish Caz (and the rest of you) had come here and made a big enough deal about that resignation to raise a few flags. But at this point, that's trading backwards.
IWS, I know you don't like this situation either, but playing nice with it and trying to talk it up like it was a good thing after seeing the player's rage? That was low. And targeting Caz as if people are calling him a hero? Also pretty low. And trying to point to FREE BEERS as a reliable source? Even if he had information, no. Nobody had been taking him seriously on that news, BECAUSE WE HAD NOTHING BUT HIS WORD. One player, NOT affiliated with CCP or CPM or any reliable source we knew about. If he could cite sources, or if other known members of the community had spoken up backing his claims, then maybe. And maybe if you knew he had real information, CPM should have acted on his leak. What do you think would have happened if in the space of about an hour, EVERY person in the CPM "just happened" to post in a thread where someone else was leaking the information. I'm sure you could have found something to say, and seeing all of you show up like that would have raised a flag too, without any need to break NDA.
Caz, you resigned. You obviously don't like this situation. I wish you could have said something. Even just something to draw attention to the fact that something was wrong. CPM may have been solidly gagged, but kicked the door they locked you behind would have had us asking some questions, even if they might not have been the right ones. Now, obviously, it's too late. And yes, it's good that at least one of you TRIED to force CCP's hand on this. I'm just sorry it didn't work.
I think it's fair to say that you guys DID make an effort. Caz, IWS, all of you. I also think it's fair to say that you failed, but it's NOT fair to put the blame for that failure entirely on you. There's legitimate argument that there was probably more you could have done. There's legitimate argument that CCP should have listened and instead forced you NOT to do what SHOULD have been your jobs.
You guys are meant to be representing the community. Part of the problem was probably that CCP made it hard for you to meet that responsibility. There was probably also something you could have done but didn't see at the time. I don't know how significant either side of that... |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 20:45:00 -
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Triple Repair Madrugar wrote:bigolenuts wrote:How did you not kill anyone? Probably because he is a normal person and not a sociopath? He's NOT?
This is REGNUM we're talking about here. You might need to go back and do some fact-checking on that statement.
(and this post might need to be not taken too seriously. A little bit, but not too much) |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.05 23:23:00 -
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Clever guys.
Because obviously, as someone involved in the CPM for DUST 514, the only possible thing IWS could have been doing his entire life is this one videogame. So logically, that has to be the source of and reason for his top secret clearance.
Just because SOME of us live our entire lives in the joys of gaming and our beloved forums, doesn't mean that holds true for everyone in the community - even those who are supposed to be responsible while they're here. |
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Posted - 2014.05.05 23:51:00 -
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ZDub 303 wrote:This thread... really just needs to be locked.
It was kind of funny at first but now its just sad... Really? I thought it was getting funny again... |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.05.06 14:18:00 -
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Laurent Cazaderon wrote:TheGoebel wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:much better, sorry for being crass, i deal with CA/NDAs everyday of my life.
******* blows, but yay inside knowledge? I've stated it before in this thread. But NDA's are a necessary to get a CPM/CSM thing to work. But now it seems pretty useless to have a CPM, NDA's or not. I still think a structure like the CPM\CSM is needed. Not especially now or regarding the recent events but generally speaking. No matter how it ended, it was a pleasant experience and with some solid involvment from the devs, it actually works. Or at least, it doesnt hurt. Well if IWS is right about the CPM having the potential for more power in the future, the next time something like this is going to happen, they might be able to pre-empt it and actually do something. Also, for the most part, this CPM has been useful for the community and CCP. I honestly don't believe that CCP would have given up on the concept if everyone had stepped down in response to a stupid decision from the devs, OR if the NDA had been broken for totally valid reasons as I believe they would have been in this case.
I can understand those concerns, and I don't know the devs as well as some of you guys who have met them, but I wouldn't expect them to be that petty about something which I'm sure at least some of them also knew to be a terrible decision. |
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