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Xeuras Laevaetein
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.05.01 11:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like to start out by saying I really do love the EVE universe, and would love to see it succeed. I started playing during Apocrypha, and somewhere along the line got a tad disillusioned with the state of the game and unsubbed, coming back for some FW and then dropping off again. Now, before moving on, I really want to stress that my intent here is to generate something approaching meaningful discussion. I know HTFU is the name of the game around these parts, but I've gotten accustomed to the type of Dev/Player interaction Riot consistently demonstrates with League of Legends, and if nothing else, I would vastly appreciate either a Dev or the more knowledgeable members of the community shedding some insight on what at first blush seems to be a less than ideal state of game balance.
From a DUST perspective, I am very, very new. I'm sitting at 800k SP and relying on the Fox Gaden guides for strategy and the like. That said, it is a very real possibility that I am simply at point in the game where the things I am going to describe are simply business as usual, and that my concerns have no valid grounding. However, based on my experience with other games in the genre, as a new comer to dust my impression is somewhat negative, and frankly a lot of this has to do with Vehicles (to be very specific, tanks), and how they influence/warp gameplay at my level of play.
I'll be frank, as of the writing of this post, I have personally not piloted any of the vehicles, so there may be an element of bias here. So far I consider my experiences with the other vehicles to have been positive. Being caught offguard by an LAV or dropship often proves deadly, but they never dominate the field of play, as they can be forced off the field or destroyed even at my level of play. Tanks on the other hand have proven to be an entirely different beast, with about...8 out of every 10 matches I play seemingly revolving around who can bring the most of them to the table and thus dominate the field.
I've had many intensely frustrating experiences thus far revolving around tanks where I didn't feel like I had any meaningful options for counterplay available to me. I've only been playing a few days and I've already had numerous instances where I can't make any damage "stick" for lack of a better term (granted, this is with militia swarm+basic AV nades). From my perspective, tanks seem to possess the following attributes:
- High Durability (appropriate for the role though IMO)
- (Seemingly) Fast local rep/regen
- Mobility that seems to be about on par with an LAV (low duration on bursts of speed? afterburners? I dunno)
Unfortunately, the combination of the above factors has resulted in 1 of the following 3 scenarios playing out in pretty much all of my games where they are fielded:
1. Me and my fellow militia shitfits get steamrolled mercilessly. If solo to go hero with AV nades (or flux) +swarm launcher to at least try and wear it down a little. More often than not I do negligible damage, but if I get lucky, I drop it somewhere into armor before it kills me with 80j cannon. But then it reps up about as soon as I'm dead, meaning attrition is not an option.
2. Again, me and my fellow militia shitfits get steamrolled mercilessly. This time we maybe get a full squad of fellows to swap to AV fits (usually appears to be the lot of us in militia gear). We get off enough swarm volleys to drop it far enough into armor where it no longer wants to play. Unfortunately, the turret swings around fast enough, and the tank itself is fast enough such that it isn't at all committed to the fight, and can just run out of lock range for the swarm launcher quite quickly, while still pinning us down/killing people with the 80j. It can then simply drive in and out soloing the impromptu AV squad. That's before factoring in the rest of their team. And again, attrition proves to not be an option.
3. We also have a tank. Who's tank dies first? Surviving tank is going to mow down the supporting infantry with the 80j shortly thereafter.
Now then, that's a lot of words, and honestly, reading this over, I may very well just be QQing, but this is where I ask for feedback:
1. Any Devs/Senior Players care to weigh in on Tanks warping the metagame/gameplay? Is that something that other people's observations, or statistics based on match data would support? Perhaps limited to a singular game mode (Ambush)?
2. Should tank's be adjusted such that their tankiness comes from buffer at the expense of local rep ability to make attrition an option? Should attrition be an option at all with regards to dealing with vehicles?
3. Is their mobility a problem? Did I exaggerate in saying they appear to be on-par with LAVs in terms of speed?
4. If Tanks are balanced at the endgame, and only present a problem at the lower SP levels of play, is that something where adjustment is warranted? Or could it be speaking to a broader issue with matchmaking?
Anyways, if anyone actually takes the time to read this, I really do thank you, and hope it doesn't all just come off as QQ. I remember EVE balance changes being glacial in pace back in the day (at least in comparison to league), but I really do hope something that moves the game in a positive direction comes of this. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
2798
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Posted - 2014.05.01 12:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes, welcome to World of Tanks 514.
Was actually a bit worse in the last patch, if you were here for it (December). This has been the major topic of discussion for quite some time. Any second now spkr4thedead or takahiro kashuken will stop by and tell you that this is perfectly balanced and no changes are necessary. They are wrong.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Forum Warrior lv.2
Amarr victor!
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Seymor Krelborn
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
2264
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Posted - 2014.05.01 12:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
don't know if you saw this link showing how poorly proto swarms deal with a tank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7AwrgVwNA&feature=youtu.be
but yeah... vehicle balance is a real issue here... every time we tell ccp.... they not only don't listen they do some other crazy thing to make it worse....
I hope new eden sticks around and the games surrounding it succeed also, but ccp needs to first remove their heads from their posteriors...
this game makes me sad....
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Haerr
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
510
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Posted - 2014.05.01 12:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Don't worry CCP will improve the NPE SoonGäó, I mean they've been working on the core fps elements for a year so they're bound to improve soon, right? 
In all seriousness though since there is no matchmaking you are bound to go up against people with a 50+mil SP head start. Not only that but scotty seems intent on putting squads on the same side and all newberries on the other.
(Yesterday was ridiculous, it kept putting us and an other squad of vets on the same side and militia fits on the other.)
As for vehicles: get in cover and stay in cover, don't go where vehicles can shoot you unless you and at least 1 mate of yours have your proto AV kits out. I know it sucks but I prefer to give you realistic suggestions.
I suggest getting into a squad of vets and playing with them as much as you can. Since you are going to be short on SP (comparatively) for quite some time it is really important that you do not waste any.
Try out everything on alts before you spec into it on your main. Don't spec level 4 & 5 in passive core skills until you've got plenty of SP. Don't spec support skills for weapons beyond 1. (Proficiency, Ammo Capacity, Rapid Reload, Sharpshooter.)
Things are still bound to be 'balanced' (buff/nerfed) so don't spec to far into the following things:
- Combat Rifle
- Gallente / Caldari Scout (Or any scout for that matter)
- HMG + Heavy
- Gallente / Caldari Logistics
As for ISK, make sure that you are never in the red on a per match basis. If you get 200k per match and your suit costs 50k and you die 5 times you are doing it wrong. Yes it sucks that you can't run your fancy things but as an Eve pilot you already know better.
Building up ISK through PUBS as a new player is a pain. Loosing a lot of ISK on silly things is painfully easy as a new player.
The guys over at 'R 0 N 1 N' are awesome, try getting in contact with one of them.
Mr. J. Pearson for CPM!
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
86
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Posted - 2014.05.01 13:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tanks seem to be more of a problem in ambush, even with the limit of two, as combat seems more common out in the open where tanks excel.
Personally I don't have too much trouble with tanks as I often manage to avoid them by using buildings/cover. I rarely play ambush.
I agree that you have little chance of destroying tanks with low sp. Unless you use a militia rail tank. Try it, they are great anti tank weapons. Though I accept that having to use a tank against a tank is not really satisfactory.
A large part of the problem I think is matchmaking rather than specifically tanks. In my experience, low sp tanks are pretty poor against infantry, though still powerful against other tanks. Often only high sp tankers will be able to use a blaster tank to defeat enemy tanks and then start on infantry. This means that in tank vs infantry battles generally the infantry will not only be battling against tanks but against high sp veterans in tanks. This makes it seem like tanks are more OP than they are from the eyes of a new player.
Hopefully game-mode improvements (such as FW and PC ect) and matchmaking improvements (may need more players) should help keep high sp characters (and their high isk tanks) away from new players, making things a bit fairer, without having to directly nerf tanks.
That said, maybe heavy reppers are a little op. |
Triple Repair Madrugar
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.05.01 13:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'm sorry you're having a tough time with me, OP. I promise that I'm totally fair and balanced though! I sometimes forget to check the road and those evil proximity mines get me. Two infantry with those totally OP proto forge guns can insta kill me with rear damage shots, too. I think that's pretty cheaty but eh, it's my fault for exposing my exhaust like that. |
Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
Dirt Nap Squad.
7521
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Posted - 2014.05.01 13:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
That said, maybe heavy reppers are a little op.
They simply need to become Active Modules.
There is no reason as to why Passive Tanking should be nearly as strong as Active Tanking in terms of resist, nor is there a reason as to why a high tiered Swarm Launcher should not be able to destroy the one thing it was designed to destroy.
Armored Vehicles.
Proposed Mobile CRU Changes
-HAND
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
Dirt Nap Squad.
7521
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 13:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Triple Repair Madrugar wrote:I'm sorry you're having a tough time with me, OP. I promise that I'm totally fair and balanced though! I sometimes forget to check the road and those evil proximity mines get me. Two infantry with those totally OP proto forge guns can insta kill me with rear damage shots, too. I think that's pretty cheaty but eh, it's my fault for exposing my exhaust like that.
Player incompetence is not a valid argument.
Also:
Atiim wrote:
With 3x Complex Damage Modifiers and the 169% Bonus, a Wiyrkomi Breach FG deals 4,057HP. By calculating the FG's 10% modifier, a Triple Rep Madrugar has 5,040HP.
So unless 4057HP > 5040HP, you aren't OHK'ing anything.
Proposed Mobile CRU Changes
-HAND
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Xeuras Laevaetein
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2014.05.01 16:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:don't know if you saw this link showing how poorly proto swarms deal with a tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7AwrgVwNA&feature=youtu.bebut yeah... vehicle balance is a real issue here... every time we tell ccp.... they not only don't listen they do some other crazy thing to make it worse.... I hope new eden sticks around and the games surrounding it succeed also, but ccp needs to first remove their heads from their posteriors...
Just wanted to thank everyone that responded both in thread and via evemail so far. Also, I just watched the video and started reading the relevant thread. I can't say I'm finding the present state of affairs encouraging so far if only because of the pace of balance adjustments I tend to associate with EVE circa '09/'10 (a topic that came up while squading with someone who invited me to play with them because of this thread). Anyways, I'm off to dig through the rest of the protoswarm thread :\ |
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