Goric Rumis
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Posted - 2014.04.28 19:20:00 -
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Pvt Numnutz wrote:You make it sound pretty nice but I worry that it will only dumb things down like it did for vehicles.
I feel like tiericide actually improves the situation. As IWS points out, the tiers are just "better" versions of the lower-tier items. So the only purpose they really serve is not to provide more variety but to provide a simple trade-off between ISK and performance. Killing any tiers where unequivocally MTL < STD < ADV < PRO would put greater emphasis on designing variants rather than just upgrades.
Personally, I would like to extend what I call "minor tiericide" to all items in the way that it exists with shield extenders and armor plates. Everything improvement is balanced by a negative. For example, a rifle that gets higher damage at the advanced and proto level also gets higher kick. A profile dampener reduces scan radius by an increasing percentage. Give every positive a negative and it's no longer just about spending more money to get something better, it's about a trade-off.
On the other hand, if suits receive tiericide, you may not have enough CPU and PG to fit everything proto, and so your trade-off will be whether you want a more powerful weapon or a more effective armor rep. The important take-away is that every advantage comes with a disadvantage. And that means more variety, not less.
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Goric Rumis
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:41:00 -
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Okay, here we go. (I've found my posts mostly either get ignored or end the discussion, so if this kills the thread, my apologies to IWS.)
Fundamentally, what's being called "tiericide" is the same thing from EVE to DUST, not because ship hulls equate to dropsuits but because of the design philosophy.
WHAT TIERICIDE IS (PHILOSOPHY)
"Tiericide" is a transitional step moving from one design philosophy to another. Specifically, it's moving from a philosophy where experience and money buy greater power to one where every item in the game has a purpose. This was the stated intent as far as I saw of the "tiericide" effort in EVE: that a player with 10 years of skill training would have some reasonable justification to use every ship for which that player had trained.
To clarify, "tiericide" is not a long-term solution. The long-term solution is the design philosophy. "Tiericide" is a way of getting from the current philosophy to a new philosophy.
One could reasonably consider the current design philosophy "pay-to-win." This is because investing more ISK in your fit buys more power, with absolutely no downside other than the increased cost.
The new philosophy, on the other hand, considers ISK to be an economic factor rather than a balancing factor. When you consider opening the DUST economy to simple trading, mining, manufacturing, and research, let alone EVE, you may start to see how the simple ISK-for-power tradeoff becomes problematic. At the very least, it can contribute to a steep money-power loop.
HOW TO IMPLEMENT TIERICIDE
There are different camps. As IWS pointed out, it's not a great idea to go to CCP with specifics. (I've spent a lot of time on corporate strategy, so I can relate.) But for the purpose of this explanation, let's outline three.
First up is complete tiericide. Everything in the game that currently has tiers, gets cut down to one item. Instead of standard, advanced, and prototype codebreaker modules, you get one codebreaker module. Same with suits. Weapons would still have variants, but it would just be assault rifle, tactical assault rifle, breach assault rifle, and burst assault rifle--no standard, advanced, or proto.
Second is to put downsides on all equipment. This turns "better" equipment into "more specialized" equipment. For example, one prototype Scout suit might have a higher scan profile than its standard variant, while another might be slower than the standard, in exchange for other advantages or more PG/CPU. A prototype rail rifle might be more powerful but also have more kick than a standard variant.
The final approach I'll discuss is proposed in the original post in this thread. Simply remove the suit tiers. There will be one militia heavy frame, one basic heavy frame, one Commando, and one Sentinel for each race. Same with medium and light suits. Modules and weapons go untouched. The reasoning behind this is that the module, weapons, and equipment tiers have to balance around the suit's fixed PG/CPU. No one will be able to fill every slot with a prototype item, so for every fit you will have to choose whether you want more power in one slot at the expense of power in another slot. Thus the remaining standard/advanced/prototype tiers for modules, weapons, and equipment are justified on the basis of fittings costs and tradeoffs, not just ISK.
THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE
The most widespread impact will be an increase in variety without having to add any new content. Instead of just buying the most expensive version of all the same modules (I very much doubt that there's a whole lot of variation in how people fit Sentinels, for example), players will have to make choices about how the equipment they're choosing will impact the way they play.
The biggest potential negative impact is that players may feel less "elite" if higher tiers are removed, and disincentivize spending and skills. Going from driving a Ferrari to driving a Honda isn't functionally different, but the way you feel about it is different. I believe, if done right, that players won't really miss the tiers because of the ability to unlock variety and customization. Not to mention there is a different sense of "elite" in mastering something powerful that comes with downsides or weaknesses.
THE IMPACT OF TIERICIDE ON NEW PLAYERS
The potential positive impact on the new player experience is a complicated one to discuss, because NPE is complicated in general. Research suggests players need to feel they are 90% of the way to "success" ("success" being a moving target as the player progresses) in order to be motivated to play. In this sense the concept that "having an elite motivates the new players to try to reach that level" is fundamentally flawed. All new players see is a long slog of losing games, trying to earn enough SP and ISK just to be able to feel like they're really playing.
Tiericide helps with the NPE psychologically because the gap between tiers can be intimidating. If I'm in a standard medium suit and get killed by a proto assault, I have four tiers and seven skill levels between me and the person that killed me in the suit alone. But if I'm just killed by an "assault" suit, all I see is the role. The psychological impact could be significant even if the practical impact is minimal. Remember that a lot of the NPE is about how players feel and not necessarily the reality behind it. That works in both directions.
SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT FOR TIERICIDE IN THREE SENTENCES
(Because apparently this is a thing now.)
Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player.
Thoughts?
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Goric Rumis
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Posted - 2014.04.29 14:32:00 -
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Jack McReady wrote:Goric Rumis wrote:
Instead of becoming more powerful over time, players will unlock more variety over time. Instead of all-proto fits, players will fit as needed to their play style. Instead of having better and worse items, every item will have a use for even a wealthy, high-SP player.
tiercide does not mean that you dont get advantages over new players. the difference is that you are not just getting twice the HP like you do now.
You are correct, obviously. So my three-sentence summary wasn't very well worded. There would still be upgrading, but the curve would be flattened and there would be more focus on side-grading and weighing pros against cons when designing fits.
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Goric Rumis
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Posted - 2014.04.29 16:42:00 -
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Zahle Undt wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:I can see where this idea comes from good intentions, but I am not sure it could work without even more roles of suits.
I do not think it would fix things nearly as much as one would think. The main difference in people is not their suits, but in their thumbs. Yes the suit makes a difference, but people are lying to themselves when they do not admit many of these people in proto gear are naturally better anyway.
We would still see massive imbalance, and it would likely cause less diversity as people find out what role/suit is the best for getting a good KDR. Thumbs and SP in passive skills. Passive skills and FPS skills are what set vet elites apart from everyone else and tiercide isn't going to stop that. Goric dude may be correct in that it will benefit people psychologically, but psychology is bullshit, so in the end iercide is just bullshitting people 
If you really believe psychology is bullshit, you really shouldn't be trying to design games. Game design is 98% behavioral psychology, 2% aesthetics (which is just a different kind of psychology). (Those are made up numbers, but you get my point. Behavioral psychology influences almost everything about the design of a game.)
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Goric Rumis
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Posted - 2014.05.01 20:07:00 -
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Quil Evrything wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
LOL. Only suits need to get tiericide. Mods and weapons would remained tiered, as it is in EVE.
BPO suits would get ADV stats, and become the new miltia, regular suits get proto stats.
See, not that hard was it?
Or, contrariwise, BPO and militia suits stay as they are. Toss both "basic" and "proto" suits. Leave ADV as the "this is what you skill into" suit. Proto level is where sanity goes out the window. Keep things at the ADV level, and the specialization between different suit types, actually stays meaningful.
Not a bad idea, actually. Your current BPO standard suits would be a step up from militia but not as good as what you'd buy off the in-game market. Would that leave militia too underpowered, though?
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