DUST Search - It appears that people do not understand tiercide well

Ander Thedas wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

Ander Thedas wrote:

I don't think this can work until the game has many times the current number of suits. Right now the options are too limited and by decreasing the total amount of suits available by 3 and making that if you want skill effected suits that you have to constantly run present day equivalent of proto would either mean a) that there is no more risk/reward for pulling out the good stuff since the price has been decreased enough to compensate for the fact that the tiers have been squashed or that b) the suits you skilled into to get a bonus to at lower levels are now utterly useless as it's too expensive to run any variant of your skill effected fits. This might be an option down the line when there are dozen more suit roles with dozen more bonus that we can spec into at a T3 option ABOVE what we already have, but that time isn't now. It would rob the game of both mobility and choice and just flatten the risk to reward dynamic. Sorry, kitty, not just yet.

The thing is, the majority of those suits are never used.
And no, there won't be a lack of suits, here is what we will have:
ONE RACE:
MLT Caldari Light, MLT Caldari Medium, MLT Caldari Heavy
Basic Caldari Light, Basic Caldari Medium, Basic Caldari Heavy
Caldari Scout, Caldari Assault, Caldari Logistics, Caldari Sentinel, Caldari Commando
Suits: 11

And there are 3 more to choose from, increasing the amount of suits in the game to 44.

And the thing is, they will ALL be used, not one will be useless.

The biggest thing this will accomplish is decreasing the power potential of players who are high SP but can't afford to run proto constantly. The rest of it will be pretty much a side effect of this change, and nowhere near as hard hitting to the general userbase (Or destroying the risk/reward dynamic so that everyone runs proto all the time, which is infinitely more devastating to the economic flow of the game).

If they take the current skill bonuses and apply it downwards to basic suits, and then give the specialized suits even MORE specialized bonuses then maybe that's a different discussion, but that seems like strange backtracking. It should be the other way with T3 suits introduced first, then the system will make sense. Tiericide will EVENTUALLY be the right way to move, but right now it will be far more of a burden than a boon.

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Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 9055	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:39:00 - [1] - Quote *When people on the forums talk about tiercide, this is what they usually DON'T mean:* Removal of STD/ADV modules Removal of STD/ADV weapons Removal of STD/ADV equipment Removal of Passive skills *This is what they DO mean:* Removal of STD/ADV suits Putting MLT suits at previous ADV suit levels Adjust prices of MLT, Basic Frames and Specialized suits so everyone will see use *What some (Including I) mean, but not all:* Making skills unlock all tiers at level one, and just increase effectiveness with higher skill level This varies slightly from person to person, but this is the general consensus I've seen on the forums. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 5083	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:46:00 - [2] - Quote Tiericide! \o/ Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 9055	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:50:00 - [3] - Quote BTW my cat yawned and I put my finger in her mouth just now. That is all, carry on. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 573	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:50:00 - [4] - Quote I don't think this can work until the game has many times the current number of suits. Right now the options are too limited and by decreasing the total amount of suits available by 3 and making that if you want skill effected suits that you have to constantly run present day equivalent of proto would either mean a) that there is no more risk/reward for pulling out the good stuff since the price has been decreased enough to compensate for the fact that the tiers have been squashed or that b) the suits you skilled into to get a bonus to at lower levels are now utterly useless as it's too expensive to run any variant of your skill effected fits. This might be an option down the line when there are dozen more suit roles with dozen more bonus that we can spec into at a T3 option ABOVE what we already have, but that time isn't now. It would rob the game of both mobility and choice and just flatten the risk to reward dynamic. Sorry, kitty, not just yet. Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 9055	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:54:00 - [5] - Quote Ander Thedas wrote: I don't think this can work until the game has many times the current number of suits. Right now the options are too limited and by decreasing the total amount of suits available by 3 and making that if you want skill effected suits that you have to constantly run present day equivalent of proto would either mean a) that there is no more risk/reward for pulling out the good stuff since the price has been decreased enough to compensate for the fact that the tiers have been squashed or that b) the suits you skilled into to get a bonus to at lower levels are now utterly useless as it's too expensive to run any variant of your skill effected fits. This might be an option down the line when there are dozen more suit roles with dozen more bonus that we can spec into at a T3 option ABOVE what we already have, but that time isn't now. It would rob the game of both mobility and choice and just flatten the risk to reward dynamic. Sorry, kitty, not just yet. The thing is, the majority of those suits are never used. And no, there won't be a lack of suits, here is what we will have: ONE RACE: MLT Caldari Light, MLT Caldari Medium, MLT Caldari Heavy Basic Caldari Light, Basic Caldari Medium, Basic Caldari Heavy Caldari Scout, Caldari Assault, Caldari Logistics, Caldari Sentinel, Caldari Commando Suits: 11 And there are 3 more to choose from, increasing the amount of suits in the game to 44. And the thing is, they will ALL be used, not one will be useless. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2577	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:54:00 - [6] - Quote With Tiericide you could still unlock variants with increase SP investment too. Level 5 could also unlock tech II variants of each modules. The big thing though is dropsuits in dust, the power differential is far too high.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12780	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:00:00 - [7] - Quote There's no reason it can't pave the way for more variety, not less. Rather than having the SP be going into direct upgrades, it could be going into specialisation - for example, rather than spending SP to make your suit flat out superior spend SP to focus your suit on one aspect. There could also be different suits with different tradeoffs in the same tier. As an example, there used to be a scout type-II which sacrificed a sidearm for an extra equipment slot. Not in the manner that a logistics did it, going full on equipment carrier, but enough to differentiate it and give it a different focus. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Oh, forums
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 573	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:01:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Ander Thedas wrote: I don't think this can work until the game has many times the current number of suits. Right now the options are too limited and by decreasing the total amount of suits available by 3 and making that if you want skill effected suits that you have to constantly run present day equivalent of proto would either mean a) that there is no more risk/reward for pulling out the good stuff since the price has been decreased enough to compensate for the fact that the tiers have been squashed or that b) the suits you skilled into to get a bonus to at lower levels are now utterly useless as it's too expensive to run any variant of your skill effected fits. This might be an option down the line when there are dozen more suit roles with dozen more bonus that we can spec into at a T3 option ABOVE what we already have, but that time isn't now. It would rob the game of both mobility and choice and just flatten the risk to reward dynamic. Sorry, kitty, not just yet. The thing is, the majority of those suits are never used. And no, there won't be a lack of suits, here is what we will have: ONE RACE: MLT Caldari Light, MLT Caldari Medium, MLT Caldari Heavy Basic Caldari Light, Basic Caldari Medium, Basic Caldari Heavy Caldari Scout, Caldari Assault, Caldari Logistics, Caldari Sentinel, Caldari Commando Suits: 11 And there are 3 more to choose from, increasing the amount of suits in the game to 44. And the thing is, they will ALL be used, not one will be useless. The biggest thing this will accomplish is decreasing the power potential of players who are high SP but can't afford to run proto constantly. The rest of it will be pretty much a side effect of this change, and nowhere near as hard hitting to the general userbase (Or destroying the risk/reward dynamic so that everyone runs proto all the time, which is infinitely more devastating to the economic flow of the game). If they take the current skill bonuses and apply it downwards to basic suits, and then give the specialized suits even MORE specialized bonuses then maybe that's a different discussion, but that seems like strange backtracking. It should be the other way with T3 suits introduced first, then the system will make sense. Tiericide will EVENTUALLY be the right way to move, but right now it will be far more of a burden than a boon. Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 9058	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:11:00 - [9] - Quote Ander Thedas wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Ander Thedas wrote: I don't think this can work until the game has many times the current number of suits. Right now the options are too limited and by decreasing the total amount of suits available by 3 and making that if you want skill effected suits that you have to constantly run present day equivalent of proto would either mean a) that there is no more risk/reward for pulling out the good stuff since the price has been decreased enough to compensate for the fact that the tiers have been squashed or that b) the suits you skilled into to get a bonus to at lower levels are now utterly useless as it's too expensive to run any variant of your skill effected fits. This might be an option down the line when there are dozen more suit roles with dozen more bonus that we can spec into at a T3 option ABOVE what we already have, but that time isn't now. It would rob the game of both mobility and choice and just flatten the risk to reward dynamic. Sorry, kitty, not just yet. The thing is, the majority of those suits are never used. And no, there won't be a lack of suits, here is what we will have: ONE RACE: MLT Caldari Light, MLT Caldari Medium, MLT Caldari Heavy Basic Caldari Light, Basic Caldari Medium, Basic Caldari Heavy Caldari Scout, Caldari Assault, Caldari Logistics, Caldari Sentinel, Caldari Commando Suits: 11 And there are 3 more to choose from, increasing the amount of suits in the game to 44. And the thing is, they will ALL be used, not one will be useless. The biggest thing this will accomplish is decreasing the power potential of players who are high SP but can't afford to run proto constantly. The rest of it will be pretty much a side effect of this change, and nowhere near as hard hitting to the general userbase (Or destroying the risk/reward dynamic so that everyone runs proto all the time, which is infinitely more devastating to the economic flow of the game). If they take the current skill bonuses and apply it downwards to basic suits, and then give the specialized suits even MORE specialized bonuses then maybe that's a different discussion, but that seems like strange backtracking. It should be the other way with T3 suits introduced first, then the system will make sense. Tiericide will EVENTUALLY be the right way to move, but right now it will be far more of a burden than a boon. Actually the skills thing is one of the things I would also like to see. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1667	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:18:00 - [10] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: With Tiericide you could still unlock variants with increase SP investment too. Level 5 could also unlock tech II variants of each modules. The big thing though is dropsuits in dust, the power differential is far too high. I'd love to see some tech II stuff. I want my Khanid vehicles with their sleek black and silver skins without giving up my love for missiles (since Khanid ships are derivations of Amarr ships but with a focus on missile systems instead). "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2580	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:21:00 - [11] - Quote I honestly believe if we only tiericided dropsuits and AV weapons this game would be 95% of the way there with tiericide. Proto weapons are just not the problem that proto dropsuits fitting proto modules are. I wouldn't mind seeing a system similar to Eve though where we can manufacture std gear easily and cheaply. We find adv gear through pve mission and pvp contract salvage - those trade at whatever price. We build proto gear but its a pita and its expensive (like Tech II in Eve) We could leave all of the power and levels as they are and just modify how they are acquired. Dropsuits though, like ships in eve, need to just have their tiers removed completely. ADV is the new MLT, and PRO is the new STD - Role Bonus regardless of SP investment and suit bonus that is 'per level'. Role bonus would be the 'Scout, Logi, Assault, etc..' bonuses. Then, finally... fixed the scaling on shield extenders -.- (42, 54, 66) for shield extenders, make it happen CCP... NOW.
Gaelon Thrace Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 174	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:24:00 - [12] - Quote Ander Thedas wrote: Tiericide will EVENTUALLY be the right way to move, but right now it will be far more of a burden than a boon. It's actually the other way around. Committing tiericide now would make it easier to add more suits in the future since they wouldn't have to design and balance multiple tiers for every suit they add. Tiericide will likely require a balancing pass as it is, so waiting until there are more suits would just make the process an even bigger pain in the ass.
Tweaksz Jaded Clones 61	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:29:00 - [13] - Quote It could also help introduce Faction Dropsuits. For example: Serpentis, Guristas, Blood Raiders, Sansha's Nation, Angel Cartel, SOE and the like. Still waiting on a Serpentis Scout Suit. Unicorn GalScout with TAR/BAR and IoP/BoltP.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1289	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:29:00 - [14] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: *When people on the forums talk about tiercide, this is what they usually DON'T mean:* Removal of STD/ADV modules Removal of STD/ADV weapons Removal of STD/ADV equipment Removal of Passive skills *This is what they DO mean:* Removal of STD/ADV suits Putting MLT suits at previous ADV suit levels Adjust prices of MLT, Basic Frames and Specialized suits so everyone will see use This varies slightly from person to person, but this is the general consensus I've seen on the forums. I don't really pay attention. I had read up on it a few months ago. If its like what they did to tanks, its dumb. Crush them
Gaelon Thrace Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 174	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:35:00 - [15] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I don't really pay attention. I had read up on it a few months ago. If its like what they did to tanks, its dumb. What did they do to tanks? I've never used one.
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 576	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:36:00 - [16] - Quote Gaelon Thrace wrote: Ander Thedas wrote: Tiericide will EVENTUALLY be the right way to move, but right now it will be far more of a burden than a boon. It's actually the other way around. Committing tiericide now would make it easier to add more suits in the future since they wouldn't have to design and balance multiple tiers for every suit they add. Tiericide will likely require a balancing pass as it is, so waiting until there are more suits would just make the process an even bigger pain in the ass. The most seamless way to do it would be simultaneously, and that would be the most massive overhaul this game is ever likely to see. But that would require adding 24 new suits (assuming the pilot class has been introduced by then/with the update) while simultaneously removing 64 old ones. In the meantime I'd rather propose dropping the costs of basic suits to lower than the specialized versions so that players have an incentive to running them, which will accomplish some of the same goals without introducing the pandemonium of new issues to arise by implementing tiericide too early. The economy is the biggest thing DUST has going for it. It needs to be handled very very delicately. Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1289	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:39:00 - [17] - Quote Gaelon Thrace wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I don't really pay attention. I had read up on it a few months ago. If its like what they did to tanks, its dumb. What did they do to tanks? I've never used one. they took all the customization away and reduced slot count. They made it so morons could pilot them and SP Doesn't really matter. Crush them
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 9062	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:46:00 - [18] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Gaelon Thrace wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: I don't really pay attention. I had read up on it a few months ago. If its like what they did to tanks, its dumb. What did they do to tanks? I've never used one. they took all the customization away and reduced slot count. They made it so morons could pilot them and SP Doesn't really matter. That's not tiercide, that's literally the stupid version of tiercide that people think we mean. Tiercide =/= less module slots, and doesn't mean less customization. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
Gaelon Thrace Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 175	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:53:00 - [19] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: they took all the customization away and reduced slot count. They made it so morons could pilot them and SP Doesn't really matter. Could you be more specific, since I have literally no idea what they did, and "took all the customization away" is pretty vague. How did they take away customization other than reducing slot count? And reducing slot count doesn't have anything to do with tiericide. Just based on that, tiericide is not like what they did to tanks.
P14GU3 The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 602	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:56:00 - [20] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: BTW my cat yawned and I put my finger in her mouth just now. That is all, carry on. This was more interesting than your OP Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?



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