DUST Search - Shields and Armour - Addressing the disparity.

Monkey MAC wrote:

Korvin Lomont wrote:

Monkey MAC wrote:

RINON114 wrote:

It sounds like a good idea, assuming that there is a problem in the first place.

- Armour has a much higher HP pool than shields.
- Shields regen MUCH faster.

If you want we can give shield extenders and armour plates exactly the same HP but give all suits a ~20hp/s armour regen rate.

Oh wait no, that would make the game boring.

Edit: Although I do agree that shield's do need to scale properly, ie: 22, 44, 66.

35 HP/s on a Gallante Sentinel is hardly laughable.
The HP pool is far too much by comparison 1900 on a gallante sentinel vs Caldari Sentinel at just 900.

There is a shield Armour imbalance that can not be denyed and it more than just bad scaling on extenders.
If you do the maths on my solution

Buffer tanks are viable
Armour tankers have the highest ceiling of EHP
Shield tankers are capable of reaching enough EHP to sustain a decent amount of damage.
Buffer Shielders are capable of outstripping armour buffers, but armour buffers willmstill be a force to reckoned with.

Brick tanking carries too much of a penalty, while dual-tanking is still possible.

Don't forget the penalties you make it sound like HP is the only thing that matter but it is not.

Sure Armor has higher HP but that come sat the cost of NO passive repair and a quite noticeable penalty to:
Jump height, movement speed, sprinting speed (most probably doubled) and Strafing speed (most probably doubled)

Where as Shields have a barely noticeable penalty to only ONE stat shield depleted delay. To make things a bit worse the better your initial stat the less you suffer from the penalty whereas as armor tanker the better your base stat the more you suffer from the penalty.

Shield aren't meant to tank huge amount of damage they are meant as small buffer without speed penalty for hit and run tactics...strike fast retreat and recover. Whereas armor is there to take the punch but rely on vast amounts of time or team support to recover.

I do agree to a small buff of basic and adv extenders to maybe 33,44,66 or 22,44,66 but that should be enough to buff shields.

The delay is not 'barely noticeable' even the current shield penalty does more damage to shield user than you probably understand. You say repping is a shields greatest positive yet you then say the penalty to this posotive is neligible, is that not hypocritical?

By comparison Armour provides a miniscule penalty in engagements since if your ability to track your target is not marred nor is your ability to rep.
In short armour penalties do not penalise you from applying damge from, or taking damage from your target.

The only time an Armour tanker is at a disadvantage due to his penalty is when he is fleeing. Armour tankers have the ability to not only sponge significantly more damage, but to deal considerably more damage than a shield counterpart, something many armour tankers seem to forget.
It is with this in mind why a Shield Tanker should be able to absorb a 'decent' amount before retreat.

You also fail to consider that with armour repair is constant, which when paired with armour traits becomes just another feather in its cap.

Armour positives
Large HP pool
Damage Mod buffs DPS
Repper debuffs enemy DPS
Repper has no delay

Shield Positives
Large Regen (outside of combat)
Moves faster (more useful outside of combat)

Armour negatives
Moves Slower

Shield Negatives
No regen in combat
Low HP pool
debuffed by enemy with damage mod

can you not see the unbalance in this?
Don't believe me? Run a pure armour tank gallante (2 plates 2 reppers, 2 dmg mods) against a pure shield tanked caldari (2 extenders, 2 rechargers, 1kincat, 1card reg)
Run the stats beside each other, running the same weapons.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 943	Posted - 2014.04.29 13:45:00 - [1] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: RINON114 wrote: It sounds like a good idea, assuming that there is a problem in the first place. - Armour has a much higher HP pool than shields. - Shields regen MUCH faster. If you want we can give shield extenders and armour plates exactly the same HP but give all suits a ~20hp/s armour regen rate. Oh wait no, that would make the game boring. Edit: Although I do agree that shield's do need to scale properly, ie: 22, 44, 66. 35 HP/s on a Gallante Sentinel is hardly laughable. The HP pool is far too much by comparison 1900 on a gallante sentinel vs Caldari Sentinel at just 900. There is a shield Armour imbalance that can not be denyed and it more than just bad scaling on extenders. If you do the maths on my solution Buffer tanks are viable Armour tankers have the highest ceiling of EHP Shield tankers are capable of reaching enough EHP to sustain a decent amount of damage. Buffer Shielders are capable of outstripping armour buffers, but armour buffers willmstill be a force to reckoned with. Brick tanking carries too much of a penalty, while dual-tanking is still possible. Don't forget the penalties you make it sound like HP is the only thing that matter but it is not. Sure Armor has higher HP but that come sat the cost of NO passive repair and a quite noticeable penalty to: Jump height, movement speed, sprinting speed (most probably doubled) and Strafing speed (most probably doubled) Where as Shields have a barely noticeable penalty to only ONE stat shield depleted delay. To make things a bit worse the better your initial stat the less you suffer from the penalty whereas as armor tanker the better your base stat the more you suffer from the penalty. I do agree to a small buff of basic and adv extenders to maybe 33,44,66 or 22,44,66 but that should be enough to buff shields.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 946	Posted - 2014.04.30 08:22:00 - [2] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: RINON114 wrote: It sounds like a good idea, assuming that there is a problem in the first place. - Armour has a much higher HP pool than shields. - Shields regen MUCH faster. If you want we can give shield extenders and armour plates exactly the same HP but give all suits a ~20hp/s armour regen rate. Oh wait no, that would make the game boring. Edit: Although I do agree that shield's do need to scale properly, ie: 22, 44, 66. 35 HP/s on a Gallante Sentinel is hardly laughable. The HP pool is far too much by comparison 1900 on a gallante sentinel vs Caldari Sentinel at just 900. There is a shield Armour imbalance that can not be denyed and it more than just bad scaling on extenders. If you do the maths on my solution Buffer tanks are viable Armour tankers have the highest ceiling of EHP Shield tankers are capable of reaching enough EHP to sustain a decent amount of damage. Buffer Shielders are capable of outstripping armour buffers, but armour buffers willmstill be a force to reckoned with. Brick tanking carries too much of a penalty, while dual-tanking is still possible. Don't forget the penalties you make it sound like HP is the only thing that matter but it is not. Sure Armor has higher HP but that come sat the cost of NO passive repair and a quite noticeable penalty to: Jump height, movement speed, sprinting speed (most probably doubled) and Strafing speed (most probably doubled) Where as Shields have a barely noticeable penalty to only ONE stat shield depleted delay. To make things a bit worse the better your initial stat the less you suffer from the penalty whereas as armor tanker the better your base stat the more you suffer from the penalty. Shield aren't meant to tank huge amount of damage they are meant as small buffer without speed penalty for hit and run tactics...strike fast retreat and recover. Whereas armor is there to take the punch but rely on vast amounts of time or team support to recover. I do agree to a small buff of basic and adv extenders to maybe 33,44,66 or 22,44,66 but that should be enough to buff shields. The delay is not 'barely noticeable' even the current shield penalty does more damage to shield user than you probably understand. You say repping is a shields greatest positive yet you then say the penalty to this posotive is neligible, is that not hypocritical? By comparison Armour provides a miniscule penalty in engagements since if your ability to track your target is not marred nor is your ability to rep. In short armour penalties do not penalise you from applying damge from, or taking damage from your target. The only time an Armour tanker is at a disadvantage due to his penalty is when he is fleeing. Armour tankers have the ability to not only sponge significantly more damage, but to deal considerably more damage than a shield counterpart, something many armour tankers seem to forget. It is with this in mind why a Shield Tanker should be able to absorb a 'decent' amount before retreat. You also fail to consider that with armour repair is constant, which when paired with armour traits becomes just another feather in its cap. Armour positives Large HP pool Damage Mod buffs DPS Repper debuffs enemy DPS Repper has no delay Shield Positives Large Regen (outside of combat) Moves faster (more useful outside of combat) Armour negatives Moves Slower Shield Negatives No regen in combat Low HP pool debuffed by enemy with damage mod can you not see the unbalance in this? Don't believe me? Run a pure armour tank gallante (2 plates 2 reppers, 2 dmg mods) against a pure shield tanked caldari (2 extenders, 2 rechargers, 1kincat, 1card reg) Run the stats beside each other, running the same weapons. Just for the record I run armor tanked suits, shield tanked suits and dual tanked suits. I love shields even to a degree that I shield tank most of my armor suits (while abandoning plates). And to say there is no delay in armor rep is wrong its just smaller it is basically 1 sec as the repair cycles in that period. And if you use you modules right you can reduce the shield delay quite a bit. IMHO shield tanked suits aren't meant for direct confrontation they are meant to flank. And this so obvious: Fast regen no speed penalty plus the inability to recover under fire. So lets see how bad the current penalty is: Lets take a cal scout for example: Shield base stats assuming max skills: shield HP: 162,5 regen 50 Hp/s regen delay: 3s depleted delay 4s Now with 4 complex extenders: shield HP: 453 regen 50 Hp/s regen delay: 3s depleted delay 5,24 Sooo with 4 extenders your depleted delay is reduced from 4 to 5.24 s, as long as you don't loos all shields this isn't even noticeable. If you now fit one maxed regulator you can totally nullify the penalty (penalty goes down to 3.8) PLUS you reduce you regen delay to 2.2s. and you still have one low free (in that case) to slap an armor repper or reactive plate. So in order to regen the whole 453 HP the scout has to wait 13s (in cover or out of combat) and he is combat ready again... So yes the penalty is barely noticeable...and can be completely nullified by a module that don't even require you to reduce your tank. Now show me a way to nullify the armor penalty completely without loosing tank....(it is not even close to possible)