DUST Search - Why is it okay that armor tanks can rep faster than shield tanks?

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Monkey MAC wrote:

Hmm that is a good point, shield tanks just seem gimped by comparison again. Boosters only go a short way to dealing with the imbalance vehicle wise.
Also the fact that shield and armour reps aren't that different is actually just as worrying.

Especially when you can drop just 1 armour repper for 136 extra armour.
The lack of delay for armour was supposed to be a balancing act but it potentially nullifes shields so long as the Shield buffer is so small by comparison.

But then why does a Gunlogi always beat a Madrugar?

Simply put I find there are two kinds of Tank in Dust....you can try for your durability fits.......they mean jack **** in the face of a double damage modded HAV.....and the Gunlogi lets you fit a better Railgun fit....essentially the only tank type worth a damn.

When does a Gunnlogi ever beat a Madrugar? If we're comparing equal weapon systems with equal engagements (rail vs rail firing at same time, blaster vs blaster, etc), the Madrugar wins at everything except missiles, and that's only because of the damage type (and why I advocate EM missiles).

Madrugars can out rep blasters so there's no competition. Gank Madrugars have a better tank than a gank-fit Gunnlogi so it can survive just long enough to kill it in an ideal situation, but realistically it always boils down to who shoots first so there's no real comparison. Missiles I explained above.

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I-Shayz-I I-----I 3070	Posted - 2014.04.27 12:21:00 - [1] - Quote Right now we have two types of vehicles, Caldari shield "tank" and Gallente armor repair. Obviously the Caldari suits are long range fighters with the idea of stacking HP modules and relying on cover to allow for the shield delay before they can quickly rep back up and engage. However when in CQC against multiple enemies they are weak because of the inability to recharge while taking fire. Gallente are not so much built for stacking HP, but instead work better for speed, CQC, and constant armor repair. Armor "tanking" is generally build more for the Amarr. But looking through the stats on vehicles and vehicle modules I found that it differs greatly from the suits. The shield recharge on Caldari AND Gallente tanks is relatively the same, whereas the caldari suits usually have about twice the shield recharge that the gallente have. There aren't any ways to improve the shield recharge rate through tank modules, but the heavy armor repair modules are insanely high compared to the base armor of gallente tanks. ___________________________________________________________________________ Gallente sentinels have a base armor of 525, and with 3 armor reps you can get 18.75 armor repair (ignoring the 1hp/s). 18.75 / 525 is 3.57% Gallente tanks have a base armor of 4000, and with 3 armor reps you can get about 350 armor repair 300 / 4000 is 8.75% Translating that 8.75% to the sentinel we get 45.94 armor repair 45.94 / 18.75 is a factor of about 2.5, or a 150% difference Caldari sentinels have a base shield of 525, and a base shield regen of 30. 30 / 525 is 5.71% Caldari tanks have a base shield of about 2600, and a base shield regen of about 200 200 / 2600 is 7.69% Translating that 7.69% to the sentinel we get 40.37 shield recharge 40.37 / 30 is a factor of about 1.3, or a 30% difference Let's pretend caldari sentinels have the same base shield ratio to the gallente sentinels, as the caldari tanks have to the gallente tanks...which is about 1.54. This would mean that Caldari sentinels would have about 340 shields Pretend Caldari sentinels have a base shield of 340, and a base shield regen of 30. 30 / 340 is 8.82% Caldari tanks have a base shield of about 2600, and a base shield regen of about 200 200 / 2600 is 7.69% Translating that 7.69% to the sentinel we get 26.15 shield recharge 26.15 / 30 is a factor of about .9, or a 10% difference _________________________________________________________ Math aside, what I'm trying to get at here is that if in dropsuit balance we can't stack armor repairers on gallente suits to out-rep the base shield regen of a caldari suits...we shouldn't be able to do the same when it comes to tanks In other words, having a possible 350 (or more?) armor repair compared to 200 shield recharge is like being able to have 52.5 armor repair compared to 30 shield recharge. Opinions? Links: 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! I make logistics videos!
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12770	Posted - 2014.04.27 12:26:00 - [2] - Quote It's not. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Oh, forums
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2643	Posted - 2014.04.27 12:45:00 - [3] - Quote Hmm that is a good point, shield tanks just seem gimped by comparison again. Boosters only go a short way to dealing with the imbalance vehicle wise. Also the fact that shield and armour reps aren't that different is actually just as worrying. Especially when you can drop just 1 armour repper for 136 extra armour. The lack of delay for armour was supposed to be a balancing act but it potentially nullifes shields so long as the Shield buffer is so small by comparison. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9773	Posted - 2014.04.27 12:53:00 - [4] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Hmm that is a good point, shield tanks just seem gimped by comparison again. Boosters only go a short way to dealing with the imbalance vehicle wise. Also the fact that shield and armour reps aren't that different is actually just as worrying. Especially when you can drop just 1 armour repper for 136 extra armour. The lack of delay for armour was supposed to be a balancing act but it potentially nullifes shields so long as the Shield buffer is so small by comparison. But then why does a Gunlogi always beat a Madrugar? Simply put I find there are two kinds of Tank in Dust....you can try for your durability fits.......they mean jack **** in the face of a double damage modded HAV.....and the Gunlogi lets you fit a better Railgun fit....essentially the only tank type worth a damn. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1460	Posted - 2014.04.27 13:02:00 - [5] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Hmm that is a good point, shield tanks just seem gimped by comparison again. Boosters only go a short way to dealing with the imbalance vehicle wise. Also the fact that shield and armour reps aren't that different is actually just as worrying. Especially when you can drop just 1 armour repper for 136 extra armour. The lack of delay for armour was supposed to be a balancing act but it potentially nullifes shields so long as the Shield buffer is so small by comparison. But then why does a Gunlogi always beat a Madrugar? Simply put I find there are two kinds of Tank in Dust....you can try for your durability fits.......they mean jack **** in the face of a double damage modded HAV.....and the Gunlogi lets you fit a better Railgun fit....essentially the only tank type worth a damn. When does a Gunnlogi ever beat a Madrugar? If we're comparing equal weapon systems with equal engagements (rail vs rail firing at same time, blaster vs blaster, etc), the Madrugar wins at everything except missiles, and that's only because of the damage type (and why I advocate EM missiles). Madrugars can out rep blasters so there's no competition. Gank Madrugars have a better tank than a gank-fit Gunnlogi so it can survive just long enough to kill it in an ideal situation, but realistically it always boils down to who shoots first so there's no real comparison. Missiles I explained above. Me in my ADS: 1,2
Jakar Umbra Altyr Initiative 582	Posted - 2014.04.27 13:12:00 - [6] - Quote To simply answer the title question, it is "okay" because somebody who works on these vehicles came up with the bright idea to have passive armour reps. Yay... Author of Umbra's Short Stories Sisters of EVE Initiate.
MockHolliday Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 3	Posted - 2014.04.27 13:24:00 - [7] - Quote I am in a corp that does ...ok. I think all our rail tankers use gunni...all. In fact gunni are present in PCs probably at at 3 to 1 ratio. I could be wrong...but the highly competitive games seem to have gunnis...of course any tank can kill another. But as a whole...
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1281	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:26:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Hmm that is a good point, shield tanks just seem gimped by comparison again. Boosters only go a short way to dealing with the imbalance vehicle wise. Also the fact that shield and armour reps aren't that different is actually just as worrying. Especially when you can drop just 1 armour repper for 136 extra armour. The lack of delay for armour was supposed to be a balancing act but it potentially nullifes shields so long as the Shield buffer is so small by comparison. But then why does a Gunlogi always beat a Madrugar? Simply put I find there are two kinds of Tank in Dust....you can try for your durability fits.......they mean jack **** in the face of a double damage modded HAV.....and the Gunlogi lets you fit a better Railgun fit....essentially the only tank type worth a damn. To add to this tanking has been dumbed down quite a bit. If you have the skills you can drive any pile of junk into battle and do well. Neo-tankers can't understand why their proto mods and guns keep failing against cheap ass tanks. Its a case where skill trumps gear. Of course they always come back with another proto rail, its fine with me I like high payouts. Crush them
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1281	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:29:00 - [9] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Hmm that is a good point, shield tanks just seem gimped by comparison again. Boosters only go a short way to dealing with the imbalance vehicle wise. Also the fact that shield and armour reps aren't that different is actually just as worrying. Especially when you can drop just 1 armour repper for 136 extra armour. The lack of delay for armour was supposed to be a balancing act but it potentially nullifes shields so long as the Shield buffer is so small by comparison. But then why does a Gunlogi always beat a Madrugar? Simply put I find there are two kinds of Tank in Dust....you can try for your durability fits.......they mean jack **** in the face of a double damage modded HAV.....and the Gunlogi lets you fit a better Railgun fit....essentially the only tank type worth a damn. When does a Gunnlogi ever beat a Madrugar? If we're comparing equal weapon systems with equal engagements (rail vs rail firing at same time, blaster vs blaster, etc), the Madrugar wins at everything except missiles, and that's only because of the damage type (and why I advocate EM missiles). Madrugars can out rep blasters so there's no competition. Gank Madrugars have a better tank than a gank-fit Gunnlogi so it can survive just long enough to kill it in an ideal situation, but realistically it always boils down to who shoots first so there's no real comparison. Missiles I explained above. madrugars aren't as maneuverable. I can drive circles around a bad ass Maddy and destroy him with ease. Its when you get three or four maddies in a fight that make them tough. Crush them
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1912	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:42:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: It's not. This. Although there aren't only problems with the armor reps, so just tweaking these wouldn't do much other than make the Gallente vehicles terrible compared to the Caldari vehicles. But yes, in my opinion armor reps (large at least, I haven't really looked at the small reps) need to be at least halved, they just rep way too much at the moment. At the same time damage mods also need to be nerfed to somewhere between 10-20%, railguns should overheat on the fourth shot (currently sixth shot) along with some other changes to ensure a good balance between Caldari and Gallente vehicles. All in all it's just extremely funny when 1.7 was all about vehicle rework and that rework ended up in a huge mess with imbalances on pretty much everything vehicle related. It really shows how CCP has no clue what they're doing. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers! R.I.P MAG.

Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3034	Posted - 2014.04.27 14:47:00 - [11] - Quote Because its a range of opportunities! Said no one. Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2078	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:01:00 - [12] - Quote I'll just leave this here click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Slim Winning Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:19:00 - [13] - Quote As far as AV is concerned, triple rep Maddys are unbreakable. Even a STD/MLT Railgun can't kill one. Its simply because the scrub tankers complained, so CCP catered to them. A 10%+ armor rep is stupidly easy to operate, and only a good tanker with skill will pop it. An Ion Cannon will still rip through a triple rep Maddy, it just takes a very long time and a lot of ammo. Hence why everyone just uses Particle Cannons and trades tanks in PC. Missiles will pop any Maddy, but aren't practical and have a larger SP sink.
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 560	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:04:00 - [14] - Quote It is not ok. Not in any way is it ok. "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 560	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:05:00 - [15] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: I'll just leave this here Hey look they are all your suggestions This implies that you think you are the only one with a reasonable approach, and because of that you should be summarily dismissed. Holy crap are you self-centered. "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2045	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:06:00 - [16] - Quote So, are you talking about suits or vehicles? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Hecarim Van Hohen 1235	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:10:00 - [17] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: So, are you talking about suits or vehicles? Talking about vehicle repair rates using suit repair rates as example "Now I am become Dev, the locker of threads." -CCP Logibro t¢«


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