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Cat Merc wrote:

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

And if you have a snare on the tank, none of that matters does it?

He isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Right now if you put two guys with swarms on a tank, the tank will probably get away.

If you replaced one of those swarms with a PLC that had a snare, then the AV tag team would win. If you give the PLC big damage instead, the tank would probably get away again unless the buff was so ridiculously outrageous that no one need ever run any other form of AV ever again.

The plasma cannon, im sorry to tell you, isn't that difficult to hit a vehicle. So drop that argument. It's hard to KILL a vehicle with. But then, its the same way for swarms and forges right now. It's difficult for any solo AV to do this job right.

What I'm telling you is that if you give it a snare, it buffs AV duos or incredibly good commandos to the point it is much easier to take down HAV's.

If you can put a snaring plasma cannon in the city, why in their right mind is going to want to rush into the city with a tank? That's a risky proposition. He's close, you're a big target, he has cover, you can't get away, the entire enemy team is surrounding you... nasty stuff.

Now it sounds like you just want a solo AV weapon that can wreck everything, to which I say no. That is not the way vehicles versus infantry has been balanced and it shouldn't be balanced that way.

To me it sounds like you want webifiers.

I don't want my only AV weapon to be a ******* web, I want to behave like a Gallente weapon would - Devastating at close range.

And if they will go the route of your suggestion they better double the ammo capacity on that thing because I will be sitting there pounding tanks for 10 minutes before they finally give up and get out to kill me. (Exaggeration but still)


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Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3557	Posted - 2014.04.22 11:02:00 - [1] - Quote The only thing the plasma cannon needs is a snaring effect for anything hit by it, or its splash. It cannot ever be as powerful as a forge gun, because that would make commandos too good. It will not as good at killing a vehicle as a swarm, because it also has anti-infantry uses and that would make it too good for a light weapon. It needs a horizontal application in its usage, and that is a snare. Give it a snare. It's slow, and if you get hit by it, you are slow. Ironic, delicious practicality.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3558	Posted - 2014.04.22 11:43:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: The only thing the plasma cannon needs is a snaring effect for anything hit by it, or its splash. It cannot ever be as powerful as a forge gun, because that would make commandos too good. It will not as good at killing a vehicle as a swarm, because it also has anti-infantry uses and that would make it too good for a light weapon. It needs a horizontal application in its usage, and that is a snare. Give it a snare. It's slow, and if you get hit by it, you are slow. Ironic, delicious practicality. The Plasma cannon is the most difficult AV weapon to use, and yes it is AV, confirmed by CCP themselves. Difficulty to use + Limited range + Low Damage = PoS It HAS to do more damage than the forge, or else you're using CCP logic. I just explained why it doesn't. A forge is not, and never will be, as devastating at killing a tank as someone who is able to land a plasma shot to prevent them from getting away, then switching to a swarm and finishing them off. Simply saying "this needs more damage or its not as good" is brain dead game design, brought about by a person with no imagination or perception of how things interact. So basically, YOU are the one using CCP logic. Furthermore, A forge gunner has to sacrifice a player slot in the game to do one, singular job. He has to be exemplary in his application of this job. If another form of AV does it better, AND can carry two weapons, the forge gunner should not be fielded ever, any under circumstance.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3560	Posted - 2014.04.22 11:52:00 - [3] - Quote If I have long range on a target a tank can get away from my forge. If I'm in close range, its even easier for him. If a plasma cannon is able to snare them, suddenly they can no longer guarantee escape and that makes the situation a lot more deadly for the tank to stumble into. Explain to me how that makes it a PoS? Guaranteed escape from one situation, inability to escape from another? You have not thought this out.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3560	Posted - 2014.04.22 11:55:00 - [4] - Quote In fact if it just got a damage buff, a person would take one hit from it, activate hardeners and GTFO. Your version of the plasma cannon would be worse than my version, versus pretty much anything.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3560	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:05:00 - [5] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: In fact if it just got a damage buff, a person would take one hit from it, activate hardeners and GTFO. Your version of the plasma cannon would be worse than my version, versus pretty much anything. I'm sorry but 1150 at proto is **** for damage, like absolute crap. And why does it have to be the king of damage instead of giving a unique controlling effect that actually puts the vehicle in a different kind of danger? If you double the damage, you end up with double-plasma-cannon-wielding commandos just running around dropping tanks without trying. If you buff it by 50%, it's still worthless compared to a forge gun's versatility and range. The only option to make it worth using and not OP is to give it a snare for vehicles, or scrap the AV idea entirely and give it a large DoT splash versus infantry.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3560	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:17:00 - [6] - Quote And if you have a snare on the tank, none of that matters does it? He isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Right now if you put two guys with swarms on a tank, the tank will probably get away. If you replaced one of those swarms with a PLC that had a snare, then the AV tag team would win. If you give the PLC big damage instead, the tank would probably get away again unless the buff was so ridiculously outrageous that no one need ever run any other form of AV ever again. The plasma cannon, im sorry to tell you, isn't that difficult to hit a vehicle. So drop that argument. It's hard to KILL a vehicle with. But then, its the same way for swarms and forges right now. It's difficult for any solo AV to do this job right. What I'm telling you is that if you give it a snare, it buffs AV dups or incredibly good commandos to the point it is much easier to take down HAV's. If you can put a snaring plasma cannon in the city, why in their right mind is going to want to rush into the city with a tank? That's a risky proposition. He's close, you're a big target, he has cover, you can't get away, the entire enemy team is surrounding you... nasty stuff. Now it sounds like you just want a solo AV weapon that can wreck everything, to which I say no. That is not the way vehicles versus infantry has been balanced and it shouldn't be balanced that way.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3563	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:33:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: And if you have a snare on the tank, none of that matters does it? He isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Right now if you put two guys with swarms on a tank, the tank will probably get away. If you replaced one of those swarms with a PLC that had a snare, then the AV tag team would win. If you give the PLC big damage instead, the tank would probably get away again unless the buff was so ridiculously outrageous that no one need ever run any other form of AV ever again. The plasma cannon, im sorry to tell you, isn't that difficult to hit a vehicle. So drop that argument. It's hard to KILL a vehicle with. But then, its the same way for swarms and forges right now. It's difficult for any solo AV to do this job right. What I'm telling you is that if you give it a snare, it buffs AV duos or incredibly good commandos to the point it is much easier to take down HAV's. If you can put a snaring plasma cannon in the city, why in their right mind is going to want to rush into the city with a tank? That's a risky proposition. He's close, you're a big target, he has cover, you can't get away, the entire enemy team is surrounding you... nasty stuff. Now it sounds like you just want a solo AV weapon that can wreck everything, to which I say no. That is not the way vehicles versus infantry has been balanced and it shouldn't be balanced that way. To me it sounds like you want webifiers. I don't want my only AV weapon to be a ******* web, I want to behave like a Gallente weapon would - Devastating at close range. And if they will go the route of your suggestion they better double the ammo capacity on that thing because I will be sitting there pounding tanks for 10 minutes before they finally give up and get out to kill me. (Exaggeration but still) Well guess what? You would be doing exactly what every other form of AV is currently doing against tanks when they operate solo. Infantry deter HAV's solo, they do not kill solo. Not against good tanks. And you're not going to do more damage than a heavy weapon. Especially not when you can hold two of the damn things. Get those delusions out of your head good sir. If you were to get any form of damage increase it would be on the plasma MORTAR, the Gallente heavy weapon. Not the Plasma cannon, a light weapon that any tard can run around with.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3563	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:37:00 - [8] - Quote No. Heavy weapons > light weapons. If they didn't do this, they wouldn't bother making them heavy.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3563	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:47:00 - [9] - Quote By introducing the snare effect you don't have to directly compare the PLC to the forge, because they serve different functions. A forge kills tankers who screw up. A swarm launcher assists a combined effort, or deters. They are not things to be held on the same level of performance. An HMG will out DPS a shotgun, and outrange it. Both are CQC, one is clearly better. The shotgun is made good by the suit it is attached to, but the HMG being a heavy weapon is good all by itself. Heavy weapons > light weapons in raw power for their intended role. The plasma cannon cannot be better than the forge gun in its intended role. A guy with a plasma cannon can lay down links. Can fight off infantry with his sidearm. A heavy with a forge has only one job, and you would have him outperformed by the PLC. That is game design stupidity. If he was on the bridge map, or three point in a cargo hub, he would dominate on any of the outside points with a PLC and dominate the lower point of a cargo hub entirely unchallenged. Why would you ever field a forge? At the range provided its way too easy to hit tanks there. No. The PLC is too applicable where it matters to give it a major damage buff. It needs an assist role.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3563	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:59:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: By introducing the snare effect you don't have to directly compare the PLC to the forge, because they serve different functions. A forge kills tankers who screw up. A swarm launcher assists a combined effort, or deters. They are not things to be held on the same level of performance. An HMG will out DPS a shotgun, and outrange it. Both are CQC, one is clearly better. The shotgun is made good by the suit it is attached to, but the HMG being a heavy weapon is good all by itself. Heavy weapons > light weapons in raw power for their intended role. The plasma cannon cannot be better than the forge gun in its intended role. A guy with a plasma cannon can lay down links. Can fight off infantry with his sidearm. A heavy with a forge has only one job, and you would have him outperformed by the PLC. That is game design stupidity. If he was on the bridge map, or three point in a cargo hub, he would dominate on any of the outside points with a PLC and dominate the lower point of a cargo hub entirely unchallenged. Why would you ever field a forge? At the range provided its way too easy to hit tanks there. No. The PLC is too applicable where it matters to give it a major damage buff. It needs an assist role. Everyone will run heavies in your vision of the game, with just logistics support. That's literally what the game will become. And don't pull the "speed" bullshit, I can make a heavy run faster than any assault while still having my 1000+ HP and the raw power doom machines. No, you can't. And even if you could, it still wouldn't matter. Heavies are about combat domination. They serve no other role. An assault can transition where he needs to fast, and brawl with everyone else. He can use his one equipment slot to supplement where his squad is weakest. A scout can assassinate, provide radar for his team, and speed hack objectives. Logis keep everything together. Without a good logi, your team needs only a single wipeout and you're done. The balance is decent. Assaults need help, but most of the balance is decent. Things, for the most part, work how they should. Scouts are FOTM because they have total situational awareness, and can do an assaults job better than an assault can. That is a singular problem that needs fixing. Most of everything else falls into line.

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3563	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:07:00 - [11] - Quote Put kincats on your assault and suddenly he's faster than your heavy. Crazy eh? Again, sprint speed is not movement speed. Sprint speed doesn't help you in combat. Movement speed does.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3564	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:13:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Put kincats on your assault and suddenly he's faster than your heavy. Crazy eh? Again, sprint speed is not movement speed. Sprint speed doesn't help you in combat. Movement speed does. Put kin cats on your assault and suddenly you can't actually fight against that heavy with kin cats. Heavies completely negate the enemies movement speed, the HMG's spread makes it so that strafing doesn't even matter. Assaults can't fight against anything. Your point is moot. We've already established they need help. Running 4 heavies is a bad idea though. Your scout has a certain radius in which his radar are useful and if he goes outside of that for any reason your team is blind. If he dies, your team is blind. Two scouts covers it better, then two heavies, two logis. Thats an ideal city squad. Two logis keeps links up, because there is always going to one guy link hunting just as fervently as the one putting them down. Two heavies combat threats at the point with HMG's. So where does the assault fit into this? Nowhere, because the single scout does a better job and gives better radar coverage. That doesn't mean heavies are magically faster though, just because you're comparing a complex kincat decked out heavy to a completely unfit assault for some ridiculous reason.