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Exionous
True Pros Forever
108
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Posted - 2014.04.22 00:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let's get down to business.
1. Speed
M1 Abrams, third generation MBT, also the fastest of our commissioned MBTs, travels at a governed speed of 40-45 MP/H.
Soma without armour plates travels at--according to the attributes screen--22.50 m/s. There are about 1,609 meters in a mile. 22.50 m/s = roughly 50.3 MP/H. The engine used in the M1 produces over 1,500 HP, which in turn translates to 1,100 kW. The PG of a Soma is branded at 2,241 kW. This is assuming the Soma uses it's internal energy to supply all components of the vehicle with power... it's probably safe to assume this. It's of course impossible to calculate in how many of these kW are being used to supply the vehicle with it's shielding system and recharging systems, as well as module regratification, but simply for the sake of demonstration, we'll take a standard number of about 550 kW of PG (complex heavy shield extender increases the shield by 1,325 and uses 587 kW of PG without optimization -- Soma has 1,200 base shields -- a rough estimate of the Soma's shield system is 550 kW of PG). An M1 Abrams has enough armour plating to weigh very close to 60 tons. We can only guess how much a Soma/Madrugar weighs. 4,000 HP in armour is difficult to grasp correctly, as we don't know what type of plates are being used. However, we can use the 60mm/120mm armour plates as a reference. Let's just say that the Soma/Madrugar is fit with the best plates that the Gallente Federation can distribute: equivalent in strength of Complex 120mm Armour Plates. It takes 2 (1885 * 2 = 3,770). Let's just say, conceptually, the less armoured places are lined with standard 60mm armour plates (3,770 + 385 = 4,155). The number is slightly higher than Soma armour, but we'll take into account that some armour may be stripped from external areas that aren't attacked often, cockpit armour is less effecient, etc. So this comes out with the 4,000 armour. We're up in total to about 180mm of armour. The Soma/Madrugar is very roughly about 86.6 inches long and maybe about 47.2 inches wide (these numbers were formulated by taking the idea that the clones are 7 ft tall, 7 ft = 2.1 m, and about 2 clones will fit beside a tank head-to-toe, and maybe a little less than the clone's entire body will fit at the front). According to calculations of steel weight (we're assuming the metal used on these tanks is steel, as they could be pre-1.7 and most likely still are), the total plating on the tanks weighs roughly about 8,105 lbs -- 4 tons. Okay, something's wrong, because if an M1 Abrams weighs 60 tons, and goes 45 MP/H, and the Soma weighs 4 tons, excluding internal systems, and goes 50 MP/H... Either CCP's math on plating is WAY off, and those plates should have MUCH less base plating, the plating used is not steel and some extremely lightweight, extremely resilient metal that for the sake of balance shouldn't be used, or these tanks should be going more like 70-80 MP/H, and the only people that would advocate that would be tankers. My guess is it should be #1 on that list: tanks have base plating that is absolutely ridiculous to the math of tanks. Side note: even to assume that parts of the formulas are wrong, the gap is so massive that there isn't a correct counterarguement to be placed.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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Exionous
True Pros Forever
108
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Posted - 2014.04.22 00:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
2. Damage Resistance
One tank can survive: - 2 militia swarms on shields (80% effeciency at 220 dmg per missile = 176, 1 volley = 704, 2 = 1,408, shield recharging usually drops this to about 1,200-1,300 depending on the speed of the swarms)
- 3 volleys of standard/militia swarms if ALL missiles hit and the tank has 0 HP/s and does not have it's shielding return: the 4th volley will kill (standard swarm launcher deals 286 dmg a shot without proficiency on armour (130% efficiency = 66 extra damage, 220 + 66 = 286. 4 missles per shot = 1,144 dmg. 1,144 * 3 = 3,432 -- add one more (3,432 + 1,144 = 4576) and you get the kill shot by 576 damage. Add how many swarms were fired: 2 swarms on shields = 8 missles, 3 volleys more = 20 (12 + 8 = 20), the final volley kills at 22 (20 + 2 = 22). Why 2? At 4,576 damage total, the final volley of swarms takes only 2 of the 4 to hit to kill (3,432 + 2(286) = 4,004). So it took... 22 missiles to kill a tank with absolutely no repairing capabilities whatsoever.
Let's add standard militia repair rate of the Soma--100 HP/s. Take that formula, and add in the lock on time of the standard swarm launcher (1.40 s), plus travel time (intial fire time = ~.80 s + optimally 1 second to hit = total time of 3.20). 3.20 s for each volley = 300 HP returned on each volley, and every fifth volley will return 400 HP. Adding this:
Volley 1 = 1,144 dmg = 3.20 s, repair rate drops damage to 884 Volley 2 = 1,144 dmg = 3.20 s, repair rate drops damage to 884 Volley 3 = 1,144 dmg = 3.20 s, repair rate drops damage to 884
Reload is required at this time, which is 4.50 s. 3 volleys = 6.60 s, 4.50 + 6.60 = 11.1 s of repair time, which is 1,100 HP repaired every clip of swarm damage.
You pretty much completely negate an entire volley every clip. For the sake of time, we'll add that spare 44 damage onto one of the other volleys, making it 1,188 dmg. So let's continue:
Volley 1 = negated by armour repairing Volley 2 = 1,188 dmg Volley 3 = 1,144 dmg Damage total: 2,332 dmg per clip In other words, 2 clips kills the tank. Assuming that: - He doesn't run - He doesn't shoot the crap out of you before you take the 22.2 optimal seconds it takes to kill him - You get shot by another enemy - You get killed by another tank Side note: you're not always the only person attacking a tank, and I know this. I know I only calculated swarms and didn't go into AV grenades, proximity explosives, flux grenades, forge guns, plasma cannons, mass drivers, small arms fire, other tanks attacking the tank, or other installations attacking the tank. The scenario taken is for optimal circumstances for both players, not unbalancing one side over the other like most tankers like to counter their precious hunks of metal with.
Now, granted, this is the weakest of all the swarm launchers. So, for those who want to know, let's go to the highest power possible: Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher with 5 Complex Light Damage Modifiers (on an Assault Mk.0 or Logistics Ck.0 frame) and proficiency level 5 in swarm launchers. This is probably the rarest and most unrealistic we can get with these things.
With 5 Complex Light Damage Modifiers, after the stacking penalty formula has been applied, the damage mods provide a 14.125% damage bonus (31.075 damage). This puts the swarm launcher's base damage at 251 (technically 251.075, however the number should be rounded to 251 for simplicity purposes). Proficiency level 5 = 15% damage increase to missiles on armour. 15% of 220 = 253, + damage mods = 284 dmg per missle on armour. Actually not that bad. At 6 missiles per shot, the WSS will penetrate the shields in 1 shot (80% of 251 = 200.8 damage per missile, 200.8 * 6 = 1,205--1,204.8 rounded). Now we actually start dealing damage, as proficiency kicks in as well as the damage mods, as well as the efficiency of swarm launchers against armour. Remember, base damage with proficiency and damage mods together is 284. 130% of 284 = 369. Wow, that's excellent. Let's continue on.
Volley 2: 2,214 damage. Volley 3 : 2,214 damage. Tank is destroyed considering there was no armour repairing in just one clip. Now, this sounds nice. Too bad it's the most unrealistic scenario that can be considered, and all the threats are still there, only this time you're adding the risk of a 92,130 ISK dropsuit, and that's not even including grenades, armour (low slots as there's no more high slots remaining), and equipment. Not to mention that probably less than 1/200 players have: - Swarm Launcher Operation Level 5 - Swarm Launcher Proficiency Level 5 - Handheld Weapon Upgrades Level 5/Level 3 (AUR) - Minmatar Assault Dropsuits/Caldari Logistics Dropsuits Level 5/Level 3 (AUR)
Meanwhile, it takes not one skill point to run like a little pansy and foil the entire plan of over 4,500,000 SP.
The M1 Abrams can be disabled in 1 well placed rocket, and the RPG-29 Vampir with a PG-29 rocket can penetrate the hull of an M1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-29). One rocket can destroy one of the finest tanks ever created, and you're telling me that 20 MISSILES can't kill one of the weakest in New Eden? As one part progresses in power, it's counter progresses in power as well. It seems to me that anti-tank RPG's stopped progressing about 2,000 years ago. Is anyone else finding this absolutely asinine situation as much crap as I (and a good portion of the DUST population) am?
I haven't even discussed hardeners yet. We pretty much take all the numbers up there, and drop them anywhere from 20% to almost 100% negation (3 shield hardeners can reach 97.6% damage negation with 3 shield hardeners after the stacking penalty has been applied). Invincibility for 24 seconds... I bet if dropsuits could become invincible for close to half a minute, that everybody would complain.
Try your usual troll-like arguments against straight mathematical facts, tankers. Have a nice day.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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Exionous
True Pros Forever
110
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Posted - 2014.04.22 21:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:The speed thing is definitely an issue I have brought up before. Having a module that boosts our speed to unrealistic level only serves to unbalance AV as it cannot adequately target such a mobile armoured vehicle is poor. This module serves as a crutch for tankers as it allows them to get out of a fight altogether too quickly.
The Swarmers thing..... its tricky. Swarms have poor damage progression per tier, as you..or Magnus said few weapons actively see a 50% damage increase between basic and proto.
With per rates the way they are they completely invalidate the damage of swarms because of travel time.
If missile travel time was faster I believe it would go a long way to balancing out Swarms and make them a much more viable AV weapon than they currently are.
I am wholly against direct damage buffs of AV weapons, and nerfs of vehicles. But what tweaks could we discuss than might aid AV vs Vehicles, bearing of course that any buffs to AV directly also impact vehicle balance vs light frame vehicles such as DS and LAV and in future vs MAV and MTAC.
That's what I've always said. Tweaks, not overhaul. If we can keep our current system, but work out balancing problems, we wouldn't have the Godtank problem anymore and we can go on to liking this game again. Tankers keep thinking I'm trying to nerf the crap out of tanks and throw AV to it's Godmode back in pre-1.7 days. I don't want that; I'm really as much of a tanker as the average person. But, I'm disappointed with the current system as it is far too tricky and far too imperfect for us to be able to make any sort of adequate countermeasures on a tanker that has more than 4,000,000 SP into tanks.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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Exionous
True Pros Forever
110
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Posted - 2014.04.22 21:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Odigos Ellinas wrote: Swarms are ok right now.
You obviously didn't read the statistics posted.
Odigos Ellinas wrote: Vehicle speed is good. Don't forget they sacrafise a slot for speed.
A high slot? So big of a sacrifice.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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Exionous
True Pros Forever
110
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Posted - 2014.04.22 21:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
If I wanted unrealistic, I would play Call of Duty. The M1 Abrams is the fastest of America's (now beginning to be decommissioned) MBTs. So if our current tanks are faster than our current faster tanks, and are over 4x stronger, there's a statistical paradox in that. You can't be stronger and faster while just leaving your counterpart (1.8 AV) slower and weaker and expect everything to be okay.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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Exionous
True Pros Forever
110
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Posted - 2014.04.22 22:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Did you like 1.6 Tanking?
It was better than this crap. At least then a Soma couldn't be invincible in the right hands, and tanks couldn't perma-harden or stack them to be temporarily invincible.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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Exionous
True Pros Forever
113
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote: I am slowly beginning to think the only reason AVer were every very good is because they wouldn't render past 50m......
Well what I'm getting at is I think the issue is more with the nerf to AV and less the mechanics of the vehicles themselves. In 1.6 I would frequently solo kill tanks with a militia swarm launcher and standard packed AV grenades, and I'm not very good at AV. I think that was a little ridiculous, but I also think 1.7 went too far in terms of nerfing AV. EDIT: A large part of the issue is the effectiveness of the blaster against infantry. The fact that a swarm launcher can barely get outside of the blaster's range and still get a lock on is very problematic. Blasters need a range nerf, as they are supposed to be the shortest range turret in the game. That short range however should also come with terrifying DPS, but right now even point blank, a Railgun outclasses a Blaster in nearly every way. However we dont want an increase in the Blaster's DPS to make the Anti-Infantry issue worse. Aside from range, the blaster's near pinpoint accuracy and high fire rate make it exceptionally good at killing personnel. By decreasing the fire rate and accuracy of the Large Blaster, but increasing the damage per shot, you make the Blaster less effective against infantry but better as a short range AV weapon.Not only does this allow for infantry to better engage the Large Blaster outside of its absolute range, it encourages tankers to equip Small Turrets for their teammates to use to defend the tank against infantry. Ultimately this discourages solo HAV play unless the pilots intention is to fight only other vehicles, and encourages group play as it puts a higher value on smaller turrets and a lower value on large turrets in terms of dealing with infantry.
You have a rather valid point, but even if we did something as taking the range of the blaster down or reducing it's RoF, this still doesn't solve a lot of the problems in tanks, like their ridiculous speed or the permahardened/superhardened tanks. And honestly, we can't do anything to either vehicles or AV without someone on one side getting mortally pissed off.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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Exionous
True Pros Forever
113
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Odigos Ellinas wrote:AV light weapons should never never solo a HAV. It's a light weapon. Right now it dose great work in denying ground to a vehicle and to support heavy AV weapons and ather vehicles. The easiest way to destroy vehicles should always be a ather vehicle. A high slot could be a shield extender/booster/hardener. You guys want to solo HAVs but refuse to get inside one to get the job done.
You can't fight a tank that speeds off at 63 MPH. Or plants three hardeners on then runs off into the redzone, and will immediately pull a railgun tank out to counter yours, and as soon as you're dead he'll pull his other tank back out, and as soon as you come back he'll recall that tank and pull his railgun tank out again in a neverending cycle.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156825&find=unread
Sorry, what was that tankers?
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