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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1633
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Posted - 2014.04.21 17:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
So lets hear your thoughts and opinions on it then. I'll try to think about it and fill in based on the perspective of an Amarr Assault user, so far the current most frustrating thing is Skills and Bonuses not applying, but obviously that is a separate issue.
The way I see it:
Scouts have superior EWAR capabilities as well as Gank, Tank and Mobility capabilities Heavies have superior Tank capabilities as well as firepower but lacking in mobility and EWAR
So where does the Assault fit it? What are they supposed to be good at? and if they are supposed to be versatile, generalist suits should they then have the ability to closely mimic the abilities of each and every class (at a reduced performance compared to specialized suits)?
I think the issue lies in a lack of weaknesses, Assaults are not bad just not as good compared to the scouts (and heavies in particular situations) so why run an assault? Do we need to give the Assaults an advantage or should we be giving Scouts and Heavies a weakness?
So far the only thing I can think of is increasing Heavy Frame cost back, or close, to chromosome levels and reduce their turning speed once more to counteract the advantage they have; high EHP and superior CQC firepower + slow down effect from HMG
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1633
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Posted - 2014.04.21 17:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Assaults need to be the suit that never lets back, keeping the enemy on it's toes. That would require very very fast regen rate, faster than any suit can achieve without gimping itself, just like trying to EWAR with an assault is gimping yourself.
I would suggest: Caldari: 100hp/s on shields | 0hp/s on armor Minmatar: 80hp/s on shields | 4hp/s on armor Amarr: 60hp/s on shields | 12hp/s on armor Gallente: 60hp/s on shields | 15hp/s on armor I'm very keen on this kind of thing - having assaults regenerate at a very high rate so they can constantly be the aggressors.
Perhaps 100 Hp/s on caldari is a bit much. The ck.0 Scout has 50 hp/s shield regen and with 2 complex shield regulators the suit is ridiculously powerful, in under a second (so long as my shields aren't completely depleted) I start repping my shields back, and worst case scenario it will take my 9 seconds to be full health and reengage the opponent.
With that said I am interested in giving the Assaults a regenerative bonus, being the workhorses of the battlefield placing constant pressure and "Assaulting" the frontlines.
Scouts are currently the best Assaulters due to superior passive scanning abilities, mobility capability as well as the versatility to use their 6 module slots and 2 equipment slots however they please (tank, gank, speed tank, EWAR or whatever you please)
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1633
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote: I would suggest: Caldari: 80hp/s on shields | 1hp/s on armor Minmatar: 60hp/s on shields | 5hp/s on armor Amarr: 40hp/s on shields | 15hp/s on armor Gallente: 20hp/s on shields | 17hp/s on armor
What about this instead?
Also, could we see a slot layout change for the Assault suits as well. Obviously the current slot layouts are no longer viable. I suggest Kagehoshi's suggestion unless anyone has a better idea.
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1634
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote:Cat Merc wrote: I would suggest: Caldari: 80hp/s on shields | 1hp/s on armor Minmatar: 60hp/s on shields | 5hp/s on armor Amarr: 40hp/s on shields | 15hp/s on armor Gallente: 20hp/s on shields | 17hp/s on armor
What about this instead? Also, could we see a slot layout change for the Assault suits as well. Obviously the current slot layouts are no longer viable. I suggest Kagehoshi's suggestion unless anyone has a better idea. The Amarr rep rate is practically on top of the Gallente rep rate there whilst they have double the shield regen. Especially as Gallente equipment is more oriented towards active armour tanking than the Amarr I don't think that's quite balanced.
Would it be best to push the Rep threshold up to Amarr 15hp/s and Gallente 20hp/s or bring it down to Amarr 10hp/s and Gallente 15hp/s?
I fear that if we do not tread lightly we will see the manifestation of the triple Rep Madrugar in Gallente Assault users. I'm inclined to bring it down then, what about this:
Cat Merc wrote: I would suggest: Caldari: 80hp/s on shields | 1hp/s on armor Minmatar: 60hp/s on shields | 3hp/s on armor Amarr: 30hp/s on shields | 10hp/s on armor Gallente: 20hp/s on shields | 15hp/s on armor
4 Complex Armor Repairers on a Assault gk.0 using this suggestion would take its Armor repair rate to; 25 (6.25 x 4 modules) + 15 base making it 40 armor reps a second. Would this be overpowered?
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1635
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote: I agree with your buff to regeneration as a whole, but regen needs to more focused on regaining your tank after the confrontation, rather than using your regen during a battle to win it. This becomes a problem with armour reps.
I can understand your point from a shield tanker perspective but the idea of Armor tanks should be the ability to brawl so I think having a relatively high armor rep (40 max on gk.0 with 4 complex repairers) would make it as if the Assaults had a mini (minuscule not minmatar) Logi repping them like a Sentinel with a Core Rep tool on them, just not as effective.
Armor tanks brawl - if they can avoid damage by strafing or using cover they can essentially regenerate their health through combat, I believe the current weapons DPSs are enough to nullify the usefulness of having a high armor rep on an armor suit.
Shield tankers Hit & Run - Just like you said, regenerate their tank after confrontation and able to be self sufficient with good use of cover and flanking maneuvers
I dont think we can have high shield regeneration ability without having an equally high armor regenerative ability, considering the deadliest weapons in the game as of now are the Armor Killing, high ROF CR and HMG
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1635
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I would suggest: Caldari: 100hp/s on shields | 0hp/s on armor Minmatar: 80hp/s on shields | 4hp/s on armor Amarr: 60hp/s on shields | 12hp/s on armor Gallente: 60hp/s on shields | 15hp/s on armor I think these numbers are high, but I really like the idea of a frontal assault specialist that can keep the pressure on. My take on the numbers:
- Caldari: shield recharge rate 60HP/s (up from 30HP/s)
- Minmatar: shield recharge rate 50HP/s (up from 25HP/s)
- Amarr: increase armor HP to 270HP (up from 180HP)
- Gallente: innate armor repair 5HP/s (up from 2HP/s)
Make the changes listed above, gather data, make adjustments as needed. I opted not to give Amarr innate armor repair because I still think that needs to be a Gallente tanking style. The Amarr should continue to be armor bricks. The Gallente's innate armor repair gives them a free PRO armor repper.
Then the Amarr would be the only Assault that does not have a regenerative effect, which what we're trying to advocate as the Assault class' unique feature. We're just going off Cat's suggestion to give Assault a constant frontline presence by giving them high regenerative capabilities.
I'd take 5 armor reps a second over more Armor any day, it won't make the Amarr Assault a better assault suit, compared to the others IMO
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1635
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Also, while we're all here; Lets discuss Assault's module layout.
First off read Kagehoshi's Suggestion here and leave him a comment and a like if you agree with him. The summary of his suggestion is as follows;
assault & logi Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange). Give all assaults the same number of mod slots. Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier:
Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3
Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3
Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4
I have two suggestions I'd like to open up for discussion
1. Symmetry between opposing races similar to Sentinel Layout First off I propose swapping the layouts of the Minmatar and the Caldari and from there creating a symmetry between opposing races' suits.
At Prototype Level Assault Suit: Amarr 3/4 Minmatar 4/3 Gallente 2/5 Caldari 5/2
2. Slot layout similar to Scouts
Amarr 3/4 Minmatar 5/2 Gallente 3/4 Caldari 4/3
I'm liking number 1 a lot more but giving the Gallente 5 low slouts could(?) make it OP? I'm not sure. what do ya'll think
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1636
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote: With the regen rates I suggested, another module slot would be too much I think. Let's increase the regen rate and see what happens, if assaults are still underpowered try adding a module slot.
So you suggest we keep the slot layouts as they are currently? My problem with that is currently the Amarr have one less slot layout compared to the others due to a minuscule increase in base stats, something that the Amarr Scout and Sentinel both share yet they retain the same total slots as the other races.
So if we want to try the Regeneration for Assaults I suggest to add a lowslot for the Amarr making it inline with the Gallente (3 highs and 4 lows)
Suggestion 1 works off of the fact that Amarr Assaults are missing a slot for no good reason and by swapping the Min and Cal layouts we are then able to achieve symmetry in opposing races and thus turning the layouts to
Amarr 3/4 Minmatar 4/3 Gallente 2/5 Caldari 5/2
If we don't want too much change then just give the Amarr their missing lowslot
Amarr 3/4 Minmatar 5/2 Gallente 3/4 Caldari 4/3
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1637
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
yep derrith again wrote:Personally, Tib, I think that the slot layouts are fine, I believe it's the benefits that are making the suit suffer. For example, most of the other frame suits get dual benefits. The Gallente scout gets scan profile reduction and scan range for example.
Amarr assaults get a reduction to heat, which is great, but still only one.
Cal assaults get a bonus to reload speed of rail tech, correct?
My proposal is this, give them a weapons benefit and a suit benefit.
For example, my benefit for Gk.0 assaults
6% to hybrid blaster Rate of fire per fire, this will effectively make an AR not completely useless in this endeavor, and Ion pistols can also be useful. second benefit being a 3% buff to armor repair modules per level. This will take advantage of the gals ability to regenerate even more, which is their main playstyle.
Amarr should keep current benefit, as it fulfills its role perfect. But the added bonus should be something to do with armor buff, or perhaps getting rid of the pesky movement speed involved in the amarr assault. Proposed benefits are as follows, 3% to armor plate efficiency per level, 1% to maximum movement and sprint speed per level.
Minmatar I believe has a good benefit, keep it. Do not add a tightening to spread on this suit, that will kill all competition IMO. The secondary benefit should be either 4% to max stamina per level, so it's speed tanking doesn't get cut short due to stamina issues, or 3% to shield recharger efficiency per level.
Cal assault really got shafted this build. Give them old benefit with a 1% percent bonus, (3% to shield extenders per level) and on the rail rifle, perhaps a ROF buff, a tighter spread, or a bonus to a regulator or something.
The slot layouts are fine but again I reiterate, the Amarr Assault is the only class that gets an incremental increase in base stats at the cost of losing 1 from their total slot count, something that the Scout nor the Sentinel is afflicted by; both the sentinel and scout gain this incremental base stat increase yet are not afflicted by the loss of a module slot
This is more so putting the Amarr Assault in line with the others at its current state, there is no justification for the Amarr Assault to have 1 less slot compared to the other suits. Yes yes I use the Amarr Assault, I am biased, but still my point stands; there is no justification.
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1642
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Posted - 2014.04.21 20:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Funkmaster Whale wrote:The ScR and LR on the other hand should just be rebalanced to reduce heat build-up to allow any suit to use them effectively. I know the Amarr Assaults love their bonus but it honestly would be a buff to the Amarr to reduce Laser weapons heat build-up overall to make it so any any Amarr suit could make use of them just as effectively. This would also pave the way for making these weapons more viable to other races as well. Much like in Eve Online, races should provide noticeable bonuses with their preferred racial weapon system. For example, in Eve the Gallente receive bonuses with drone weapon systems. Other races can use drones, but not nearly as effect as the Gallente. Other races can fit the ScR and LR, but the Amarr should receive racial bonuses to make those weapons really shine.
I suggested here that we change the proficiency skills of some weapons (perhaps all weapons) to something more interesting. For the ScR I suggested that the ScR proficiency gives youa heat sink akin to the Amarr Assault albeit smaller (10% or 15% at level 5 Proficiency).
This would allow the ScR to be more viable used on non Amarr Assault Dropsuits but when used on the Amarr Assault the compounding affect makes the combination truly deadly.
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1642
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Posted - 2014.04.21 20:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zaaeed Massani wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Assaults need to be the suit that never lets back, keeping the enemy on it's toes. That would require very very fast regen rate, faster than any suit can achieve without gimping itself, just like trying to EWAR with an assault is gimping yourself.
I would suggest: Caldari: 100hp/s on shields | 0hp/s on armor Minmatar: 80hp/s on shields | 4hp/s on armor Amarr: 60hp/s on shields | 12hp/s on armor Gallente: 60hp/s on shields | 15hp/s on armor I'm very keen on this kind of thing - having assaults regenerate at a very high rate so they can constantly be the aggressors. No way, I think that would make assaults way too OP. Now, this is coming from a Minmatar suit user so everything feels slightly OP to me, but I have to admit that seems a bit overkill. Personally, I think Commandos were given bonuses the assaults should have received. I'd like to see the Commando damage bonuses to racial weaponry transferred to assault suits. The assault suits would also all receive the Minmatar bonus to clip size of racial weaponry. The commandos would retain their reload bonus and receive a bonus to max ammo (say 30-40%) for equipped racial weaponry. Thoughts?
No, that would be silly for Commando Users they already have a nice role and we should not look to change other suits in hopes to buff the Assault suit.
Regeneration is much more valuable than sheer damage, in fact; sheer damage increase would make the suits way more OP. Your suggestion for the Commando Bonus isnt very good either, not worth skilling into. If you want more ammo have your Caldari Logi drop you some top notch nanohives, teamwork is key.
By giving the Assaults a regenerative feature this would allow them to constantly maintain a frontline or a hot zone allowing Field Commanders to place different roles and pieces at different places on the chess board; Heavies can be either placed at a defensive position or to spear head a frontline push allowing the scouts to perform flanking maneuvers to either stealth hack an objective while fighting goes on or flank and take out stragglers and other scouts, all the while a team of commandos are on a highground raining down MD rounds and Laser beams.
The idea of the Assault is to maintain an assault not decimate anything and everything, you do this by giving them regeneration abilities while Heavies have Tank, Scouts have Mobility and Stealth, Logis have Utility and Commandos have Firepower.
Regeneration is still a better feature than a flat damage increase, let alone taking the bonus of another suit
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1645
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Posted - 2014.04.21 21:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Assaults need to be the suit that never lets back, keeping the enemy on it's toes. That would require very very fast regen rate, faster than any suit can achieve without gimping itself, just like trying to EWAR with an assault is gimping yourself.
I would suggest: Caldari: 100hp/s on shields | 0hp/s on armor Minmatar: 80hp/s on shields | 4hp/s on armor Amarr: 60hp/s on shields | 12hp/s on armor Gallente: 60hp/s on shields | 15hp/s on armor While I would absolutely love to have something like this 15 hp/s rep on armor on gallente and 12 on amarr are ridiculous. I can just see someone stacking armor reppers on top on them then standing on a rep hive and being unkillable by infantry. The repper madruger of infantry. I think the assaults role is general infantry. Some better regen and a second grenade slot with the machanics to switch between the 2 would be nice. Maybe slight EHP buff or same slots as logi with some more PG/CPU to compliment.
Idk about everyone else but I think a second grenade slot would be a worthless feature for the Assault suit.
The Sinwarden
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1st Lieutenant Tiberius
0uter.Heaven
1650
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Posted - 2014.04.22 03:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
abarkrishna wrote:My proposal would be to make the pilot suit an assault. Give it bonus' to vehicle oriented things (including anti-vehicle) and leave the other suits alone.
wut
no.
The Sinwarden
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