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Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 213	Posted - 2014.04.17 20:46:00 - [1] - Quote Earlier today, my squad and I were running some chain domination games. We ran into a lot of the same squads. One in particular spammed vehicles like there was no tomorrow. In response, we had an ADV FG and two Minmatar Commandos rocking Wiyrkomi Swarms. We wrecked tanks with ease, but the Incubus the other team called in was damn near impossible to kill. After three close calls he recalled his Incubus and whipped out a triple rep Maddy. Between the three of us we were able to continually scare him off, but we never killed him. I wish to God I had the video from the match. The Incubus had 950 shields and 38xx armor. As soon as his armor started to get low, he would hit the afterburner and rocket straight up, outrunning all 12-24 of the swarms in the air after him. This should not be so simple and easy to do. I'm sorry, but it just shouldn't. Nerf afterburners. Buff swarm flight speed. Something...but swarms are not in a great place right now. I can't find the thread, but one forum poster described swarms as "fire-and-forget rockets of death". Lets break that down... You mean the rockets that can be easily outrun by a ADS with a burner? You mean the rockets that crash into the ground if you dodge behind a low hill? You mean the rockets that you can see coming and dodge so they smash into anything you choose to hide behind? Fire and forget, indeed. Forget that you fired, maybe. Swarms DO NOT need a straight damage buff. They are space-age, futuristic rockets...the USAF has rockets that travel at Mach 6 and you're telling me that the Caldari can't engineer rockets that can chase down a fat dropship traveling at a few hundred km/h? If anything, I'd like to see them get a significant flight speed buff. If you see them coming and have the reaction time to find cover, good on you. But if they're behind you and homing in for the kill, there should be nothing in the game currently that can outrun them. Flame as you will. Running swarms is fun for me and I do not regret for an instant that I spent the SP to get them to 5 and start working on proficiency...but they desperately need a buff. Right now the only vehicle I can "fire-and-forget" my swarms with is a FULL militia fit DS/LAV/HAV with a crap-ass pilot. And maybe any variant of shield LAV because they're pretty squishy. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 214	Posted - 2014.04.17 21:46:00 - [2] - Quote Richard Hansaw wrote: I agree. But if that happens I think they'll have to balance it with some kind of jammer module. (But make it un-stackable and usable in short bursts, like the original Saga-II 80% hardener.) I'm ok with that, it actually sounds like a very good idea. Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I also would like a lock range increase; 50m or so. For the record I was complaining about swarms as loudly as anyone else back pre-1.7. Yeah I'd also like to see the lock range increased to 200-250m, or somewhere in there...but I feel that is pointless when they can still be so easily outrun. Also, if the flight speed is drastically buffed then extending the lock on range too far could result in them being rather overpowered. I don't want them overpowered, I just want them to reliably accomplish the role they were originally meant to. HappyAsshole1 wrote: lock on range increase 50m and 5-10% damage buff. not too good, not too bad=no complain. No damage buff. Completely unnecessary. Read the thread. Henchmen21 wrote: Sure just so long as you remove the knock back so I have the slightest chance of fighting back. In my experience both flying (all DS variants) and running AV, the knock back effect is a 50/50 thing at best. I can only recall once that I've had swarms hit me so badly they caused me to lose even slight control of my aircraft...and I fly in almost every match I play, ask my corporates. And I can also recall only once when I was running AV that the knock back resulted in the dropship pilot's aim being negatively affected. So the most I'd be happy with is having the knock back effect reduced somewhat...if its removed completely then in addition to the flight speed buff I would want a slight damage buff as well. It takes 1-2 well placed shots from a missile launcher to kill an infantry soldier...so it should then take an absolute max of 4 swarms to kill an ADS IMHO. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 218	Posted - 2014.04.17 22:56:00 - [3] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: No. You said that you already wrecked tanks, so what effect would they have on that? You weren't paying very close attention, but I'll say it again... There were two Wiyrkomi Swarms and one ADV Forge Gunner. If we weren't wrecking tanks there would be something wrong. Quote: Also, if you're making them fly away aren't you doing your job anyway? No... If they fit missile for the purpose of being able to kill infantry, then an infantry weapon that is specialized for AV should be capable of killing them back. It;s that simple. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 218	Posted - 2014.04.17 23:01:00 - [4] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Atiim wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: Also, if you're making them fly away aren't you doing your job anyway? No. If your making them fly away your simply giving them a 0 ISK, 100% risk-free pass. It's all about perspective, bud. It's not about costing them ISK, it's about making them retreat to the redline and making them useless to the team, or, of course die. You're saying you want to be able to kill a 500k ISK dropship before they even have a chance to retreat. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that an Incubus sat there and tanked... duz mathz ...approximately (just did this in 20 sec) 10,000 damage, probably closer to 14k to be honest, without even breaking a sweat. Not ok. In addition, iirc CCP fixed Caldari dropships so that they no longer have the innate 45% resistance to swarms. Gallente dropships still do, and so therein lies a large part of the problem. The fact that Pythons are more maneuverable, although more squishy, makes it even easier for them to outrun/doge swarms...which is the reason I felt compelled to start this thread in the first place. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 218	Posted - 2014.04.17 23:04:00 - [5] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: No. You said that you already wrecked tanks, so what effect would they have on that? You weren't paying very close attention, but I'll say it again... There were two Wiyrkomi Swarms and one ADV Forge Gunner. If we weren't wrecking tanks there would be something wrong. Quote: Also, if you're making them fly away aren't you doing your job anyway? No... If they fit missile for the purpose of being able to kill infantry, then an infantry weapon that is specialized for AV should be capable of killing them back. It;s that simple. Bro, I'm sorry, but if you can't kill ONE dropship with two proto swarms and a forger then you're either trying to kill Snugglz or you're bad at AV. You're not getting it, are you. Yes, perhaps the forge gunner could have had a better aim, I was busy switching to my ACR and keeping infantry off him from time to time...but the point is that it is SO EASY for an ADS to out run a flock of swarms in the blink of an eye. If you can't see (and acknowledge) the problem there then I'm finished responding to you. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 220	Posted - 2014.04.18 01:24:00 - [6] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: It's impossible the Incubus took 10k damage and still lived. The max they can tank is about 4.7k eHP. With the 45% resistance to swarms you get 6.8k eHP. So the 10k damage dealt with the AV with him still flying away is impossible. Whatever fit he had, it wasn't that. He had over 3800 armor and was repping at significantly more than 75 hp/s. My passives aren't that great for vehicles as I'm primarily an infantry guy, but I know from the skill points I do have in vehicles that his fit wasn't the one you had up. Hakyou Brutor wrote: Sounds like you need better positioning my friend. Learn how to fly a dropship and get up high with your AV. No chance of infantry getting on your case, except snipers which can be easily countered with triage hives or a counter-sniper. Edit: I understand what you're saying, I "acknowledge" that the dropship can out fly your swarms, but is that a bad thing? Imagine a game where you lost 500k ISK cause some guy decided that he'd shoot at you three times and you had absolutely nothing to counter, you were screwed, and don't say "oh, he can shoot me though." BS. You try sitting there shooting someone with an ADS, bouncing all around the place from forges and swarms, while taking "10k" damage. Did you even read any of my previous posts? I'm actually quite a good dropship pilot...but I only have 10.8M SP and I'm focused mostly on infantry at the moment. Once I get my PC fit all done (my CEO is riding me to get PC-ready) then I'll start getting back into vehicles again. Almost daily I have people in my corp or alliance ask me to teach them to fly. If I get up high with my AV, I'm a sitting duck with no cover for when mister ADS decides to mosey on over with his lolsplashdamage missiles. Having a 100% certain chance of outrunning missiles...that are by definition supposed to be damned fast...is horseshit. You want me to try? I have. It's challenging, but it's more than doable. Pythons I have a little bit less of an issue with because they're less tanky...but an Incubus able to tank that much and still outrun missiles on a whim is dumb. I can't pretend that I would have survived the barrage that we threw at this guy, because I wouldn't have. My vehicle skills just aren't skilled high enough. But I can shoot people just fine while getting "bounced all over the place". Fly better. Henchmen21 wrote: And ADS's are flying tinfoil that forges and rail guns punch through like, well tinfoil. Swarms can knock them upside down while the people launching them duck in and out of cover. Don't act like swarmers have it so bad, fire and forget and all. They're NOT fire-and-forget. They're "wait to fire until the burner is on cd, the hardener is on cd, oh wait the burner is back..." They're dumb ass missiles that are stupidly easy to get away from. Henchmen21 wrote: How about some splash damage on my rail turret then? After all I should be able to kill you back without having to get lucky in one of my 175 shots I fire at you. Fair is fair after all. Are we talking large or small rails? I assume small since this has been a dropship discussion... ...no. You want to kill me, you run missiles as they already have splash damage. If you need to run a rail turret so badly, you sacrifice your ability to kill infantry as easily. Otherwise I want my Breach Mass Driver to have homing grenades. Fair? Quote: Atiim No I'm saying that a person in the 500k ISK dropship shouldn't be able to evade with a near 100% guarantee. I have to risk something by bringing out my AV suit, what makes you special? __________________________________________________________________________________________ Hakyou Brutor It's not 100% guarantee that you get away safe. If there are two proto swarmers and a forger, then the swarmers hit the ADS once each, and the forger hits him twice it's guaranteed the ADS is dead. So it's not the fact that the ADS pilot just flies away, it's that the AVers aren't very good. Hit the afterburner and gtfo = 100%. Once a dropship gets more than 250m away (the blink of an eye with a burner going) and flies an unpredictable pattern, if the forge gunner can reliably hit you that dude needs to stop playing dust and go start foretelling the future. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 221	Posted - 2014.04.18 01:52:00 - [7] - Quote Jimbo Boilstaff wrote: I love flying my ADS.... My beautiful Python.... And AV vs the Python is definitely more in balance since the recent update..... particularly swarm launchers which are a complete nightmare now for us.... Cannot laugh them off and ignore them like we could before... I've suffered quite a few *ahem deaths to them recently There's a lot more dropships being used now since the tanks are less effective,,, but for me I think the problem across all vehicles is the afterburners and boosters..... Just take these out of the game entirely... they encourage too much of a 'i'll keep going until im almost dead then run outa there quick' kind of playstyle The tanks escape way too often (and are fast enough in the first place).... and only learner pilots use the afterburners in an ADS... those things are fast enough in the first place.... So take them out and force vehicles to commit to situations I'm ok with this. And yes, I have many fewer problems with Pythons than Incubi. I'm much less bitter when I almost kill a Python but he gets me first. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 223	Posted - 2014.04.18 02:32:00 - [8] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: The afterburner is BS, so is the flight ceiling, straight up is what pisses me off, if it were just fly to the other side of the map I could chase him reasonably well in an LAV. Swarms in no way are as advanced as modern IRL missles, however, A/C in this game also are missing the fundemental counters to modern A/A missiles, which is RAW gear and countermeasures. This has been asked for by the community many many times, even acknowledged and said would be part of the game back in beta, but has never come and is never talked about. Swarms paint, pilots should have a Bitching Betty to let them know they are painted, they should also have the option of a countermesure module that pops chaff, takes skill to use, and operates on a cool down like a module, or ammo like a turret complete with reload times and limited ammo. ABs should not outrun missles, but pilots should have a way to survive A/A fire if they have both the hard and soft skills for it. While I admit that flying a DS and ADS does take skill, activating a module and pressing L1 or whever the **** boost is fly to the top of the map, eat a sandwitch while the swarm merc gets waisted by whatever red dot is in range with a real primary weapon, then comes back after his 30 second break, does not, and that is all a pilot has to do to save himself from swarm volleys. +1 A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 232	Posted - 2014.04.18 03:52:00 - [9] - Quote ZaeedsGun wrote: Zaeed Massani wrote Quote: +1 Your **** old rifle Jessie reporting for duty, Zaeed. ***** RIGHT!!!! Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 232	Posted - 2014.04.18 03:56:00 - [10] - Quote Zirzo Valcyn wrote: Atiim wrote: Zirzo Valcyn wrote: hell yea a nerf thread awesome we need more of these As long as I get to prove a pilot to be mentally ******, It could be any kind of thread. well good luck with that it;s just crazy man all these posts and the so called logic of "we normally own everything we come accross but this one match there was finally this one guy that we didn't kill so therefore he should be nerfed even tho we negated his ability to do something" that's like me crying about the 1 python my incubus couldnt kill, since I and gunner normally destroy pythons, since we couldnt kill this one guy because he tanked my proto rail turret so therefore pythons needs a nerf... thats a BS way to request nerfs i'm done here.. enjoy your nerf thread gentlemen. YA BRAH ANOTHER NER... Oh, wait. What's that? Oh, look! The title is asking for a buff to Swarms. As is the rest of the thread! Go figure the ADS pilot doesn't bother reading, he just comes in and essentially tells us to ** off. Reading iz hardness. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?

Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 254	Posted - 2014.04.19 02:20:00 - [11] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Remove kinetic catalyzers. Deal. I run Minmatar, don't need them anyway. Spkr4theDead wrote: Just a quick message to the OP: I didn't read the whole post. I saw "nerf afterburners" and couldn't take it seriously. Then I saw that trying to go around cover to make swarms hit walls and explode, shouldn't happen. I cannot take you seriously. Spend an entire month on a 10mil SP pilot alt, doing nothing but that. Clearly you didn't read the whole post. As such, don't bother responding. Thanks! Quick message to you: nobody that I'm aware of takes you seriously, ever. Henchmen21 wrote: So only your play style is valid enough to get a buff? I run rails because that's what my 2.5 million SP skill gives me a bonus to. You don't want anything to be a threat to you but you want to be able to kill tanks and ADS's like cutting through butter. If you can kill ADS's as they afterburner away suddenly missiles are no longer a threat to you now are they? Buff rails? Hell no run missiles even though I'll just kill you anyway as you retreat as I fire volley after volley at you while I duck in and out of cover. Meanwhile you just hover there in the wide open while I and every other AV'er on the map fire at you. Don't bother running a way cus if the 300+ meter forger doesn't get you my stupidly easy to use swarms will. By the way I don't even use an AB on my slow ass brick tanked because I have to be able to survive rammings Incubus. I use a damage mod because that's the only chance I have to kill tanks. Calm down. That doesn't make sense, but I'll do my level best to respond to it anyway. There are plenty of threats to an infantry AV player...LAV's, blaster tanks, small missile turrets, small blaster turrets, enemy infantry...you are the one that chose to skill into a small turret that is most suited for killing vehicles and installations. You should then, therefore, NOT expect it to be proficient at killing infantry. Me requesting a buff for an AV weapon that currently does its job against dropships very poorly is in no way even close to you asking for a buff to a vehicle turret that does its job well -- you just want it to be able to do that job and another, as well. If rails get splash damage, them swarms get dumbfire and splash damage. this way you can use your small rails to kill vehicles and infantry, and I can use my swarms to take out vehicles and infantry. Everybody wins! /sarcasm If you wanted to use your dropship to kill infantry, you should have skilled into missiles. (By the way, there's an SP event going on right now...now would be a great time to start getting those points in small missile turrets...) Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 255	Posted - 2014.04.19 02:29:00 - [12] - Quote I've chosen to respond separately to those who disagree with me but use logic in their arguments and come off as respectful. Zirzo Valcyn wrote: Atiim wrote: Zirzo Valcyn wrote: the buff to SL yea i can take a 10%-20% buff to SL but to also nerf the ADS at the same time is overkill. if you wanna make a buff SL post hell yea, but to make a buff SL and nerf ADS post **** no. yea? no. We're not trying to buff the SL damage, nor do we want ADSs nerfed (I actually think they're in a good spot now). We just want the Swarm speed to be fast enough to the point where they can't be out-run by anybody with an Afterburner. they always end up getting my incubus but i dont have a problem with them until 2 proto SLs. a couple nights ago because i was getting slammed by 2 proto SLs and a proto FG on the map with the bridge at alpha, iirc they finally timed the alpha right and we went down, it took them a while and we could have went max height many times, but that is hella boring, would rather contour fly in and out of the chaos for fun. i'm not the ADS best pilot but i've some awesome gunners who i spend alot of SP on. i am fine with SL buff to speed. SL definately needs something. the AB timing/cooldown could be OP. i've just already been through 1 AB nerf, wasn't really looking forward to another. think the AB is bad now, the AB was off the chart at one time, gave like a %500 speed boost a year ago. it was basically a micro warp drive it took us a while to adapt to that nerf because STD swarms could 2HK us back then iirc. we woke up one morning and they had hotpatched over nerfed the AB then it got buffed up to %150 sometime ago. imo the complex AB should be faster than the basic AB and the basic/MLT should be slower than STD, if they over nerf my AB again then everyone will just whine when we switch to damage mods.. If burners get their CD extended, that could be a solid solution. I agree with what you say right here ^ about tiered burner modules. Kaminoikari wrote: >Buff swarms! They need da buff! >ADS R so Oberpoward becuz dey r fly away, o noey! First off, let's look at something real simple: Map size. The largest maps we have (from redline to redline) is roughly ~1300m. The majority of maps played are not on the largest map, as a fact, most maps are under 600m. Look at Manus Peak and that one 5pt map with the Caldari ship. Both of those maps are incredibly small leaving only one option for evacuation in swarm/forge/rail cases: the roof. You complain that swarms should be able to catch up to ADS? How about we look at the logistics of everything in the game while we're at it? No? Okay then. Swarms don't have a ****ed speed because the map size doesn't warrant it. You can't expect Dropships to just sit there and tank fire like, well, a tank. Afterburners are literally the only** option DS/ADS pilots have to evade incoming fire reliably. Don't QQ about how we can just "AB away!". Maybe if you gave me an armor hardener that negated ~80% damage for a short time and I'll be inclined to follow your logic to this. No? Okay. Dropships are weak as all hell. The only way one gains survivability is by smart piloting and the afterburner is one such way. Let's also look at why you only mention DS/ADS. What about vehicles who use Nitro? Should they get removed/nerfed as well? Obviously not because it's a vehicle limited to the ground and as such has an extremely limited field of play. Dropships are aerial vehicles and to whomever stated "nerf the flight ceiling", get out. CCP already dropped the ceiling once before and it made DS completely useless even with an AB. Final point: If the maps were actually big, then a buff to speed/damage/range would be warranted. We still have issues of swarms and rail shots' tracers disappearing causing us to be hit by "nothing". A good pilot is a great enemy. He uses all resources available, and we don't have much. P.S. - The guy you claimed tanked 10k+ damage probably had max skills into Armor Repair Systems. A complex light armor rep goes from 75HP/s to 95HP/s. at max level. You are absolutely right. My only issue (literally, my one, singular issue) is that the afterburner currently provides a method of evading incoming fire that is essentially 100% effective. After it's activated and the missiles are dodged, by the time the pilot comes back around it's already off CD again and ready to go. This means that literally EVERY TIME an ADS gets close to destroyed, hit the burner and disappear into the statosphere. Rinse and repeat. The only reason a properly geared Incubus is destroyed currently is pilot error. That's it. By the way, I never asked for the flight ceiling to be nerfed. I think that would be a mistake. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 255	Posted - 2014.04.19 02:30:00 - [13] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Atiim wrote: Zirzo Valcyn wrote: the buff to SL yea i can take a 10%-20% buff to SL but to also nerf the ADS at the same time is overkill. if you wanna make a buff SL post hell yea, but to make a buff SL and nerf ADS post **** no. yea? no. We're not trying to buff the SL damage, nor do we want ADSs nerfed (I actually think they're in a good spot now). We just want the Swarm speed to be fast enough to the point where they can't be out-run by anybody with an Afterburner. Also, lock times should be distance related - targets that are closer should require less lock time than more distant targets. (Lock ranges could then be extended as longer lock times would balance them.) I might be ok with that. It would make an AV soldier trying to lock on to a distant target much, much more vulnerable to snipers or enemy infantry. And it could help balance out the faster missile speed. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 259	Posted - 2014.04.19 23:45:00 - [14] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: You were never able to kill the pilot, but was he able to kill you while you firing at him? I doubt it, as the pilot is stuck in the flight ceiling due to AV bouncing him around and nearly killing him. Infantry can hide around obstacles and have a far greater range than missile turrets, which are anti-infantry/vehicle, as no other turret is accurate or forgiving enough to be effective in an ADS. Also, as a pilot, I don't find it difficult to destroy dropships with AV, swarms or forge guns. If you play correctly, you can avoid ADS fire. If a pilot plays correctly, he can avoid AV fire. It's that simple really. Also, how many points were you making off of him? Surely some of your missiles hit him enough to get points out of it... I hope. AV is very profitable, even when you don't kill the target. Depending on the opponent, I can get 400k isk or more simply by getting vehicle damage points. Yeah, he killed us with swarmers each once and the forge gunner twice. However, at any given time we had two tanks, him, and several infantry all after us at once so some of that may have been him finishing us off with his splash damage missiles. I got "+75 Incubus Damage" three times. That was all. Over the course of a 8-10 minute battle I find that a bit underwhelming. I find most dropships easy to kill...but that's because most have a bad pilot. Bad pilots in MLT/STD DS are easy to kill. Good pilots in MLT/STD DS are hard to kill. Bad pilots in ADS are very hard to kill, and good pilots in ADS are essentially impossible to kill. The .01% of the time that a good pilot dies to AV in an ADS is due to the occasional pilot error. Alena Ventrallis wrote: The rockets that don't properly render half the time? The rockets that cost the same as a sidearm of equivalent tier? The rockets that require no more skill than being able to hold down a lock on button? Proto swarms are fine where they are at. The only change they need is to bring standard and advanced swarms up to competitive levels. Therefore: All swarms fire 6 missiles. Missile damage goes up through the tiers. STD: 190 ADV: 205 PRO: 220 No, swarms are not fine. But if after this whole thread you still think they are, then I won;t bother trying to change your mind. P.S. I don't like those changes. It makes MLT Swarms too powerful. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 261	Posted - 2014.04.21 20:15:00 - [15] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: After skilling them to prof 3 my only gripe with them is the stupid flight paths they take. Their flight paths are fine. They're currently just too slow and too easy to outrun. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 262	Posted - 2014.04.21 20:55:00 - [16] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I really don't know that Wyrkomi's do. I had Marquess chase me around the map using Swarms on my Shield HAV and he was doing some very impressive damage per volley. There's nothing wrong wrong with the damage, nothing at all. The issue is that swarms are incredibly easy to avoid...and when you sink millions of skill points into something and are a dedicated AV'er (or at least use a dedicated build), it would be nice if the swarms actually hit the target from time to time. I really like the suggestion another poster had where aircraft pilots should have a bitching Betty that has a slow intermittent tone when you're being painted, a fast intermittent tone when you're locked on, and a solid tone when missile are in the air. Then there's no excuse when the missiles are as fast as they're meant to be and can't be outrun...because you'll have a 1.5-4 second head start depending on how far from the launcher the aircraft is...because then by the time the second and certainly third swarm is in the air, the pilot should be bugging out and evading. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 262	Posted - 2014.04.21 20:56:00 - [17] - Quote Scheherazade VII wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Earlier today, my squad and I were running some chain domination games. We ran into a lot of the same squads. One in particular spammed vehicles like there was no tomorrow. In response, we had an ADV FG and two Minmatar Commandos rocking Wiyrkomi Swarms. We wrecked tanks with ease, but the Incubus the other team called in was damn near impossible to kill. After three close calls he recalled his Incubus and whipped out a triple rep Maddy. Between the three of us we were able to continually scare him off, but we never killed him. I wish to God I had the video from the match. The Incubus had 950 shields and 38xx armor. As soon as his armor started to get low, he would hit the afterburner and rocket straight up, outrunning all 12-24 of the swarms in the air after him. This should not be so simple and easy to do. I'm sorry, but it just shouldn't. Nerf afterburners. Buff swarm flight speed. Something...but swarms are not in a great place right now. I can't find the thread, but one forum poster described swarms as "fire-and-forget rockets of death". Lets break that down... You mean the rockets that can be easily outrun by a ADS with a burner? You mean the rockets that crash into the ground if you dodge behind a low hill? You mean the rockets that you can see coming and dodge so they smash into anything you choose to hide behind? Fire and forget, indeed. Forget that you fired, maybe. Swarms DO NOT need a straight damage buff. They are space-age, futuristic rockets...the USAF has rockets that travel at Mach 6 and you're telling me that the Caldari can't engineer rockets that can chase down a fat dropship traveling at a few hundred km/h? If anything, I'd like to see them get a significant flight speed buff. If you see them coming and have the reaction time to find cover, good on you. But if they're behind you and homing in for the kill, there should be nothing in the game currently that can outrun them. Flame as you will. Running swarms is fun for me and I do not regret for an instant that I spent the SP to get them to 5 and start working on proficiency...but they desperately need a buff. Right now the only vehicle I can "fire-and-forget" my swarms with is a FULL militia fit DS/LAV/HAV with a crap-ass pilot. And maybe any variant of shield LAV because they're pretty squishy. dropships rep too fast, some shields can rep THROUGH blaster fire, I couldn't do anything to an incubus' shield earlier and he had almost 4000 armour underneath that! and what about the dropships with over 4000 shield? there is NO CHANCE that any amount of proto swarms will ever get through that. i think vehicles can stack way too much health, i understand it's either actives or passives but that madrugar with 7335 armour sat on a hill doesn't need hardeners. I have no issue with dropship repping...just a problem that swarms are soooo easy to outrun. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 266	Posted - 2014.04.22 11:26:00 - [18] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: True Adamance wrote: I really don't know that Wyrkomi's do. I had Marquess chase me around the map using Swarms on my Shield HAV and he was doing some very impressive damage per volley. There's nothing wrong wrong with the damage, nothing at all. The issue is that swarms are incredibly easy to avoid...and when you sink millions of skill points into something and are a dedicated AV'er (or at least use a dedicated build), it would be nice if the swarms actually hit the target from time to time. I really like the suggestion another poster had where aircraft pilots should have a bitching Betty that has a slow intermittent tone when you're being painted, a fast intermittent tone when you're locked on, and a solid tone when missile are in the air. Then there's no excuse when the missiles are as fast as they're meant to be and can't be outrun...because you'll have a 1.5-4 second head start depending on how far from the launcher the aircraft is...because then by the time the second and certainly third swarm is in the air, the pilot should be bugging out and evading. Since you don't actually aim the gun....... well look at it this way, those same swarms that are "so easy to avoid" will turn on a dime around corners to hit you in places you never thought was possible.... Not arguing, just giving my perspective. I just see them turn and hit buildings and low-rising hills more often than not. I'm not asking for them to have a terrain-avoidance protocol...just to be faster. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 266	Posted - 2014.04.22 11:28:00 - [19] - Quote Commander Tzu wrote: Until they fix the render issues that are STILL in the game, I really don't care how unfair it is for AV that I can go straight up to the skybox. ADS's need to be like fifty feet above someone for them to render half the time, meaning most of the time all you see are swarms coming at you or forge gun shots materializing around you as they get close enough for the game to decide they are a threat. The render issue is a fundamental game mechanic, it can screw up balancing for everything that comes after it, until it and other core issues (like redline sniping, adding adv and proto vehicles, adding the other races' vehicles) I doubt it's ever going to be balanced. It'll just bounce around from AV being OP to vehicles being OP and back again. Although, as a vehicle pilot I have to say that you guys don't really have it that bad, it took us 7 builds to be effective again you guys have only gone through 2, I might be more sympathetic in 2.2. Fair points. I started at the end of 1.6 and never AV'd until 1.8 so I never knew a time that AV was OP. All I've ever known is tank spam. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 266	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:58:00 - [20] - Quote BigStuarty wrote: he didnt say that did he ??? ^... AREAD DUST DESCRIPTION OF SWARMS----NOW WHY DNT THEY SEE A BUILDING OR A HILL--a lock on is a lock on, guys are asking for balance which brings me to a point ADS missles dont kill you, its the outrageous splash...you dnt even have to aim In defense of Dropship pilots, flying while shooting is very, very far from easy. There are several who can do it effectively, but it's not easy at all. That said, the lolsplashdamage missiles make the job much, much easier. Not as hard once you start using xt's. wait reloading wrote: Rather than nerf of buff anything, I think a change would be better. ASL is rather usless at the moment at an increase in price, wouldn't it be better for an Assault SL to have a longer lockon range at the cost of damage. Maybe give a longer flight time as well. Basicly thinking a higher damage/shorter lockon range, and a lower damage/higher lockon range and flight time variants Based on the other assault variants in the game, I envision the ASL having either an additional round in the clip, a faster lock-on time, or something like that. Tracking two targets at once does seem rather pointless most of the time. Mojo XXXIII wrote: It's just easier (and much more profitable) to spec Heavy, Scout, or Logi and just avoid the tanks altogether. True story. I just have fun running swarms right now because I run a commando and I retain my anti-infantry capabilities with my CR. Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor / Do you even lift?

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