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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
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Posted - 2014.04.17 01:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
King Amaterasu wrote:Its worse than being scanned in 1.7 because now they don't have to scan. All you need is one cal scout with 2-4 precision enhancers and they can see almost everyone. you need a gal scout with 2-3 damps to escape being scanned since no stacking penalty with precision enhancers. Other scouts have no chance to escape the scan.(ammarcan scout can if uses all his low slots) Why should a bonus apply to all members of the squad.
First, I don't trust a thing you say (assumption is you are probably a troll) since you are a part of the "elitist" group known as DNS.
2nd: Every scout can see every non-scout since every scout's precision STARTS at 40 and with level 5 precision skills it brings it down to 35. Outside of a scout, no one without 2 profile dampeners or more can avoid them.
3rd: Gal Scouts are invisible to everything and everyone with 2 profile dampeners or 1 profile dampener and 1 cloak.
4th: Precision enhancers have stacking penalties and if anyone thinks that you can go negative scan precision then you need to go back to basic math in 3rd grade. One guy said a cal scout can get -5.6 db with 4 precision enhancers and proto suit skill...
5th: Other scouts have no chance to escape? You only need 3 profile dampeners to avoid 4 precision enhancers.
6th: Generally these scouts are weak and easy to kill because they've sacrificed there slots for these precision and range amplifiers. So **** off.
7th: If a Cal Scout has to put so many precision mods on to see another scout then other scouts need to sacrifice their slots to avoid being seen. Sorry for other suits, but your lack of being able to hide is more than made up for by the LARGER amount of shields and armor over the scouts.
8th: If you remove the shared scans from squad members then what is the point of a squad or of a scout. The Scout would then lose it's title to "Runner" or "Rusher" or "Blitzer" or "Minute Men" since they would have a life expectancy of a minute or less. We need more, not less bonuses to be shared across the squad to encourage more than just a group of players with a bunch of weapons and HP mods across the board.
LAST: Thanks to complaints such as this CCP nerfed Active Scanners hard. Essentially if it's not on a vehicle you will never see an active scanner. Now you complain about passive scanners and if that gets removed you'll then turn your attention to vehicle scanners. Players like you probably won't be happy until they can run unseen, unopposed, and untouched as you troll others into quitting the game forever. It's a nice mechanic of the game and while I think it needs some adjusting I do not want it to ever be pulled.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
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Posted - 2014.04.17 01:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Please view Topic "Cal vs gal scout" as that topic is entirely related to this one.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155757
Page 6 has stats for scouts...
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
47
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Posted - 2014.04.17 02:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
King Amaterasu wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Passive scans aren't shared, it has been this way since about 1.4/1.5 which is why you had so much scanner spam. Yes they are. people in 1.7 didn't use precision enhancers because they had scanners light them up for you.
Actually, outside of 1 equipment versus 3-5 mods the main reason that I never used passive was because of how many slots it took for little return. With proto level range amps I could get something like 25 meter range. Even if I used precision enhancers I wouldn't have had a decent range to make it worth it. The actives had good scan and 100 meter range base.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
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Posted - 2014.04.17 03:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't agree with the idea of removing squad sharing of passive scans, however I do believe that it is currently too powerful at the current moment. Is it OP against heavies and mediums? Probably, but then again the heavies can pretty much kill the scouts. Someone provided the example of a group of heavies being led by a scout and to that I have to say, "This is good Squad Tactics." You have one guy (a leader) who sees the enemy or relay's orders/commands to the rest of the squad. The squad moves into position and does what it needs to to remove the threat with hopefully zero casualties. Scouts now have a place INSIDE the squad and not just as a sniper from the red-line, or as an uplink runner, or as an assassin or remote explosives expert. If the scout is a threat (much like the logi backing heavies) then you know what you have to do? Kill the scout! Sometimes CCP gives you weapons or tools to kill the guy BEHIND the group of heavies. Off the top of my head I can think of Mass drivers, Forge guns, Flaylock Pistols, Grenades, remote explosives, and sniper rifles.
The above being said, I do feel that there is an imbalance that passive scans provide. They are too powerful. Honestly I would feel better about passive scans being more equal (especially with the nerfs to active scanners) if they had some sort of falloff. Meaning that as their signal (the passive scan) moved THROUGH something, it would actually lower the range of the passive scans. Pass through a box 2 meters thick, take off 5-10 meters range. Pass through a parked truck or tank? Take off 25-40 meters. Through a mountain? Take off nearly all of it. Of course, it could also be a percentage reduction.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
47
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Posted - 2014.04.17 03:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:People are grabbing straws now it seems.....
I got a box of them.
You want one?
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
48
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:BrotherofHavok wrote:King Amaterasu wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Passive scans aren't shared, it has been this way since about 1.4/1.5 which is why you had so much scanner spam. Yes they are. people in 1.7 didn't use precision enhancers because they had scanners light them up for you. Actually, outside of 1 equipment versus 3-5 mods the main reason that I never used passive was because of how many slots it took for little return. With proto level range amps I could get something like 25 meter range. Even if I used precision enhancers I wouldn't have had a decent range to make it worth it. The actives had good scan and 100 meter range base. Dunno man, passive has been godly for quite a while. I can't imaging sacrificing low slots for dumb eHP before or after 1.8
It was useful, is the best I can say before 1.8.
I ran a minmatar logi with 10 meter scan range. Bonus on top pushed that to 15 meters. Next mod pushed that to 22.5 next pushed that to 32.4... you have to sacrifice a lot of potential to get that and most of the time it wasn't worth it to me since my job was keeping people alive and ammo stocked. I would have had to give up my profile dampeners, or my kin cats, or regulators or the 1 basic armor plate that I had to get some decent benefits. Unless I could guarantee that I'd be fighting on opposite sides of a wall it wouldn't have been as useful as it is now.
Also, that's kind of the point on the thread "Cal vs gal scout" that I personally was making. Everyone was complaining about how OP the Cal scouts are but some basic math showed that the only reason other suits could be seen was because they must have been stacking HP mods. For literally most Cal Scouts they can be avoided with 2 or 3 profiled dampeners depending on the suit.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
48
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:King Amaterasu wrote:Its worse than being scanned in 1.7 because now they don't have to scan. All you need is one cal scout with 2-4 precision enhancers and they can see almost everyone. you need a gal scout with 2-3 damps to escape being scanned since no stacking penalty with precision enhancers. Other scouts have no chance to escape the scan.(ammarcan scout can if uses all his low slots) Why should a bonus apply to all members of the squad. Look im an E-War scout and i Agree with my Fellow king here. (not with the QQ part thou)
Thing is , i AM the one scanning EVERYTHINg around me, from 54 to 75mts away (depending on the suit im using).But since im waiting to get good positioning or more info on the enemy i loose a lot of kills due med frames and heavies using MY passive scan to detect threats and take them out.(consider my Precision is strong enough to detect the more common un-dampened + tanked shotgun scouts...) So i dont even get the pleasure of feeling useful by TELLING them : '' we have 2 reds coming from the south door, probably heavies due to their slow movement...''OR WHATEVER XDA.Scanners should be less powerful than Passive scanning but have the advatange of being shared and give WP.
Passive scanning for scouts can be VERY powerful, but its not shared.Want to passive scan? get your own precision enhancers and range amplifiers... ..I.. ( - . - ) I was all for shared squad passive scan, but you make a valid argument and I can agree but scannners need some improvement too. I swear I'm not getting my 60 degrees and the cooldown is a bit much considering how when I run scout I can manage to be cloaked damn near all the time if I'm smart about it. Not saying we need the old constant scans of before but better than what it is.
In some cases the cool down is god damn ridiculous and I have a slight suspicion about the active scanners. I have level 4 on active scanners and I swear that I've scanned people that COULDN'T have avoided my scans but they don't pop up. So I began to think about it and I remembered that before 1.8 the scans would sometimes pick players up only towards the end of the scan (the scanner went out then back in) kind of like a sonar only picking something up when the signal got to it. Or in this case the signal was focused on that area. So what if, because of the "snapshot" of the active scanners now, that concept or programming hasn't been removed and it's actually unable to scan some people because it actually takes longer on the scan or needs that more focused window to actually pick them up?
If this is the case then the active scanners may be more nerfed than most players know.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
48
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Poonmunch wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Passive scans aren't shared, it has been this way since about 1.4/1.5 which is why you had so much scanner spam. This is true. It was removed. I remember it well. But are scouts now sharing passive scans? Munch They have been for a long time. I don't know when it started/ended but I started using them shortly after 1.4 and once I got the range amplifiers up my squadmates started claiming they could see it and so I just ran that from then until now.
I believe you are right and it's been that way since 1.4 when CCP stated that they didn't like team sharing info and only allowed active scanners to be shared and passive scans to be shared amongst squads. They were trying to promote squad work and use of the active scanner since no one wanted the tool that couldn't get them any warpoints or little in the future.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Just to clarify, in 1.4 they removed "all" passive scan sharing. What this SHOULD have meant is that they ACTUALLY removed all sharing of passive scans, but what it ACTUALLY meant was that players would be intermittently sharing their scan data with squadmates, but it didn't work reliably, and because of how limited everyone's scan area was, it wasn't that obvious.
Actually this was another CCP word choice error. They did say that "all" passive scan sharing was to be removed but what they were actually talking about/meaning was the "all" as in "team."
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Also, at present, it's actually TOO EASY for a dampened Scout to hide from even the Caldari Scout suit. And I'm pretty sure people who have done the math confirmed that Precision Enhancers DO get stacking penalties. Even if they don't, they have less effect per module AND a higher starting point than scan profile anyway.
People just keep ignoring the "Cal vs gal scout" topic and I keep bringing it up. I did the math and not just for cal and gal scouts. Even amarr and minmatar can be almost as annoying as the cal scout if the try to put the right mods on.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
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Posted - 2014.04.17 12:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:BrotherofHavok wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Just to clarify, in 1.4 they removed "all" passive scan sharing. What this SHOULD have meant is that they ACTUALLY removed all sharing of passive scans, but what it ACTUALLY meant was that players would be intermittently sharing their scan data with squadmates, but it didn't work reliably, and because of how limited everyone's scan area was, it wasn't that obvious. Actually this was another CCP word choice error. They did say that "all" passive scan sharing was to be removed but what they were actually talking about/meaning was the "all" as in "team." Got a source for that? As in a CCP dev quote where they directly stated as much? Because the patch notes don't say what you're saying was meant to happen, and NEITHER possibility was happening consistently. SOMETIMES, your scans would be shared with squadmates and other times they wouldn't. Quote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Also, at present, it's actually TOO EASY for a dampened Scout to hide from even the Caldari Scout suit. And I'm pretty sure people who have done the math confirmed that Precision Enhancers DO get stacking penalties. Even if they don't, they have less effect per module AND a higher starting point than scan profile anyway. People just keep ignoring the "Cal vs gal scout" topic and I keep bringing it up. I did the math and not just for cal and gal scouts. Even amarr and minmatar can be almost as annoying as the cal scout if the try to put the right mods on. ANY Scout with minimal fitting investment can become COMPLETELY invisible to ALL scans no matter how much a Cal Scout stacks precision amps. Gal Scouts can use a couple of slots for armour tanking and still hide. Adding a cloak makes it even easier. The balance should be in favour of profile dampening over precision, but not by this large a margin. Also, you say you've done your math. Want to show your working? And if you're sure about the claim of no stacking penalties on precision enhancers, provide proof of that too, since most evidence I've seen claims otherwise.
First, trying to find the forum topic where a Dev actually stated about passives to squad. I hope its still alive...
2nd: I agree with your 2nd to last statement about the margin between profile dampeners and scan precision mods.
3rd: If you're too lazy to find the topic that I stated then here...
(Directly copy and paste from the topic "Cal vs gal scout" page 6)
Some REALLY HARD Facts for you all:
Gallente Scout - Cloak & Bonus
35 Base scan profile
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
25% Scout Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
25% cloak dampener effect = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875
1st dampener = 17.71875 * 75% = 13.2890625
2nd dampener = 13.2890625 * 78% = 10.36546875
3rd dampener = 10.36546875 * 86% = 8.914303125
4th dampener = 8.914303125 * 93% = 8.29030190625
Gallente Scout - No Cloak
35 Base scan profile
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
25% Scout Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
1st dampener = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875
2nd dampener = 17.71875 * 78% = 13.820625
3rd dampener = 13.820625 * 86% = 11.8857375
4th dampener = 11.8857375 * 93% = 11.053735875
Gallente Scout - No bonus (What I would like)
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
25% Cloak Bonus = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
1st dampener = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875
2nd dampener = 17.71875 * 78% = 13.820625
3rd dampener = 13.820625 * 86% = 11.8857375
4th dampener = 11.8857375 * 93% = 11.053735875
Caldari Scout
40 Base Scan Precision
10% Precision Bonus = 40 * 90% = 36
Scout Bonus (Caldari) = 36 * 75% = 27
1st Precision Enhancer = 27 * 80% = 21.6
2nd Precision Enhancer = 21.6 * 83% = 17.928
3rd Precision Enhancer = 17.928 * 89% = 15.95592
4th Precision Enhancer = 15.95592 * 94% = 14.9985648
Minmatar/Amarr Scout
40 Base Scan Precision
10% Precision Bonus = 40 * 90% = 36
1st Precision Enhancer = 36 * 80% = 28.8
2nd Precision Enhancer = 28.8 * 83% = 23.904
3rd Precision Enhancer = 23.904 * 89% = 21.27456
4th Precision Enhancer = 21.27456 * 94% = 19.9980864
EDIT:
Minmatar/Amarr Scout
35 Base Scan Profile
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
25% Cloak Bonus = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
1st dampener = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875
2nd dampener = 17.71875 * 78% = 13.820625
3rd dampener = 13.820625 * 86% = 11.8857375
4th dampener = 11.8857375 * 93% = 11.053735875
Minmatar/Amarr Scout - No Cloak
35 Base Scan Profile
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
1st dampener = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
2nd dampener = 23.625 * 78% = 18.4275
3rd dampener = 18.4275 * 86% = 15.84765
4th dampener = 15.84765 * 93% = 14.7383145 (Amarr Only)
Gallente Logi (proto)
Precision mods do not affect the active scanner!!!!!
Proto Active Scanner = 15db
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
52
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Posted - 2014.04.17 14:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
DEZKA DIABLO wrote:King Amaterasu wrote:Its worse than being scanned in 1.7 because now they don't have to scan. All you need is one cal scout with 2-4 precision enhancers and they can see almost everyone. you need a gal scout with 2-3 damps to escape being scanned since no stacking penalty with precision enhancers. Other scouts have no chance to escape the scan.(ammarcan scout can if uses all his low slots) Why should a bonus apply to all members of the squad. Wtf are you talking about, the cal needs a buff in comparison to the gal, that is completely invisible to EVERYTHING IN GAME, with one complex damp an a active cloak, or a complex and enh damp with no cloak.
The Cal does not need a buff. If you look at the stats I posted, what would really benefit/promote fairness is if the Gallente Bonus to Profile Dampening were gone. That or equal base profile and scan precision for the scout suits themselves. I don't have numbers for the later but if you look for the first idea you can see that gallente scouts can still remain invisible, they would just need at least 1 more profile dampener (2 in total) and a cloak. Or 3 profile dampeners without the cloak.
If you buff the Cal scout then all you get is a more OP suit against non-scouts. We don't need that, what we need is to make it harder for the Gallente to remain invisible. If we buff the Cal, then all we get is mediums that cannot go invisible to Cals. Should the heavies be able to go invisible? Sure, if they put a bunch of profile dampeners on and the cal is lazy. Let's face it, if you're complaining that your heavy is being seen then you shouldn't be playing as a heavy. You give up mobility and sneakiness for the high damage weapons and the large amount of HP.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
53
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Posted - 2014.04.17 15:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:How about this for the ones stating that this gives the scout a purpose in a squad, why don't you use that neat little scouting tool called an active scanner to light up what your personal passives are picking up? You have an extra equipment slot now right?
are you serious? It's been nerfed to the point that if you don't use at least 2 on a suit you're wasting your time. Decreased visibility time and dramatic increase in cooldown speeds mean that unless you're avoiding CQC or you're protected by a squad or two you might only get one or two chances to actually use the scanner per life. The only time I'll run active scanners is with a proto gal logi with 4 active scanners. I also have the suspicion that it still doesn't pick some people up (not do to profile dampening) due to the "snapshot" effect that it now has.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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