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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
887
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Posted - 2014.04.16 18:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I jumped on the live stream of that the other night..was pretty clear it was a grease fire from the get go.
Only three words can describe that listening experience... Bat. Sh!t. Crazy.
In all seriousness, It's a good thing for a passionate and well known EVE player that might be on the CSM to support Dust. However, what I'm now VERY concerned about is what will the rest of EVE think if DNS Black is the face of Dust.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
907
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Posted - 2014.04.17 21:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:DNSBlack has his own way of discussing issues and is free to express himself just as anyone else. You may not like what he says or how he says it, but hate him or love him he drives the discourse forward even he happens to execute it like someone driving a semi through your living room. When it comes to the DNL I am going to be the one taking the lead on setting it up and I understand the grave concerns the community has right now with the situation. I think we can work through those concerns and figure out a way to make this a win for everyone. If the community unites and starts a war against DNS so be it. We have gone from stagnation and brush fires to all out conflict that provides content to the whole community. If folks get on board with the DNL then great. We can run tourneys like back in the beta when we still had the fantastic tool of corp battles. If people ask, "Why would Kain put in the time to run something like this?" My answer is that I love running sports stuff and have a history of doing so in the Dust community even at my own expense: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/04/community-spotlight-kain-spero-tournament-organizer/I have some ideas on how we can pull this off, so if you are interested reach out to me and let's make this happen.
Kain,
I can justify working with someone who's in-game goals are opposed to mine if i truly believe they are trying to make the game better and they are willing to step back from the "in-game" and work it off-line to figure out how to achieve some things... you are a good example of that. I CAN"T justify working with an unstable meglomaniac like Black. Far as I'm concerned his name is now DNS BatShitCrazy. (That said this has all nicely set you up to swoop in as the "good guy" )
My short term recommendation would to be to push for a CCP vetted (with Player facilitation) third-party tourney on roughly a bi-montly basis. I've got a lot of basic concerns with mixing a tourney into the politcal PC landscape. The better option is that it is isolated from PC to bring 1) more interest and 2) a perception of legitimacy and impartiality.
Even if CCP doesn't want to go the third party route then use the special contract mechanics and run it all internal. For arena play to really take off we need some level of impartiality injected. Rightly or wrongly, anytime corp tags are involved using the existing mechanics available to players things will be shaky.
Long term, the corp contract mechanic would be great and could facilitate true 100% player generated and ran arena content (streams, ISK betting, the whole 9 yards).
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
908
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Posted - 2014.04.17 22:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote: Will people have to have a DNS tag if they want to have land? Yes.
Will they have to have a DNS tag in order to participate in the DNL? No.
As I said before I will be leading up the establishment of the DNL, and I don't expect anyone to bow down to DNSBlack.
Just to clarify...That is exactly OPPOSITE of what DNS Black stated repeatedly and not just on that grease fire Podside episode the other day.
I see a serious disconenct between Black's interview statements, EVE side coms discussions, and position statements and videos and what you are saying. I'm also pretty confident that when Black comments on this in his DNS Black persona or CPM9 candidate hat it's the same position.
Why not let the PC system playout however it's going to play out and put the same amount of time and effort into workign with the CCP community team to run totally legit tournements outside the political construct of PC?
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
909
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Posted - 2014.04.17 22:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Kain, I can justify working with someone who's in-game goals are opposed to mine if i truly believe they are trying to make the game better and they are willing to step back from the "in-game" and work it off-line to figure out how to achieve some things... you are a good example of that. I CAN"T justify working with an unstable meglomaniac like Black. Far as I'm concerned his name is now DNS BatShitCrazy. (That said this has all nicely set you up to swoop in as the "good guy" ) My short term recommendation would to be to push for a CCP vetted (with Player facilitation) third-party tourney on roughly a bi-montly basis. I've got a lot of basic concerns with mixing a tourney into the politcal PC landscape. The better option is that it is isolated from PC to bring 1) more interest and 2) a perception of legitimacy and impartiality. Even if CCP doesn't want to go the third party route then use the special contract mechanics and run it all internal. For arena play to really take off we need some level of impartiality injected. Rightly or wrongly, anytime corp tags are involved using the existing mechanics available to players things will be shaky. Long term, the corp contract mechanic would be great and could facilitate true 100% player generated and ran arena content (streams, ISK betting, the whole 9 yards). I'm not a "good guy" and haven't claimed to be one, but I do care about the Dust community. I have to say that the the Urgent Fury tournament scarred me so bad I even have trouble thinking about TWL. Thankfully I can largely leave that to others that are interested in that sort of thing. I understand where you are coming from regarding using existing mechanics to allow players to run their own tournaments and leagues. I had to deal with that exact issue when I was rocking out my Imperfects tag (will always be an IMP at heart), but there are ways to overcome it. As for CCP creating the tools to facilitate some kind of arena mode or way for players to run their own tournaments I would love to see that happen. That said I think that using DNS control of Molden Heath we can execute it here and now. Granted we are sacrificing Planetary Conquest for an arena/tourney mode, but Planetary Conquest was already a broken game mode and was only driving both winners and losers from Dust. The status quo had to go. There are already discussions being had with websites like www.Eve-Bet.com and even some Dust players with Dev skills about setting up a way to have ISK betting be a reality for the DNL on the Eve and Dust side. We are also looking for folks that are interested in streaming as well for DNL matches. As crazy as the whole situation may seem DNS dot has the personnel, ISK financial resources, and territorial control to actually pull something like this off.
If you focus on developing a tournement event outside the PC equation you instantly remove the friction from this equation.
The simple fact is that at this point due to the communities perceptions of DNS Black, DNS dot, and to a lesser degree you as Kain Spero the player there is zero desire to be involved with this venture. Requiring players to change Alliance tags doesn't solve anything and ultimately does nothing positive for the community. There is absolutely know benefit to anyone other than feeding a very small number of folks egos.
There are clearly enough mechanics and means in the game to run a tournement....you've had that capability for a very long time by your own admission. But there is know positive incentive to participate.
Would you agree that a CCP sponsored regular tournement would be a better way to go? Why not put this amount of time and effort into that. If DNS Black had gone that route - gobbling up MH but leading the charge for impartial tournements this is a whole different discussion.
The problem with mixing arena play and PC mechanics is that it is entirely personality based and give zero recourse to those not in the circle of power. Most of us can except that PC is unfair (to a degree as it should be) but in an arena style event or league there is little to no tolerance for that to enter into the equation. The simple fact is that DNS would ALWAYS be in a position to take from players, negate wins, withold or tax winnings, or enforce constraints or restraints in the concept you are proposing. This is inherently what is creating the reaction that you guys are getting now.
I love the idea of generating content for the community....but if this is going to be a player driven thing then let's do this right and get a vetted system that is sponsored by CCP and run things in an entirely above board way. When the actual mechanics are there for real player generated tournements I'll be the first guy to sign up to help you organize them.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
912
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Posted - 2014.04.17 23:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I see a serious disconenct between Black's interview statements, EVE side coms discussions, and position statements and videos and what you are saying. I'm also pretty confident that when Black comments on this in his DNS Black persona or CPM9 candidate hat it's the same position.
Why not let the PC system playout however it's going to play out and put the same amount of time and effort into workign with the CCP community team to run totally legit tournements outside the political construct of PC?
The PC system did play out and the blight that is passive ISK led to the inevitable outcome we now have. I fought long and hard to prevent the inevitable, but I wonder if I wasn't just delaying real solutions being put in place. From the CRONOS war, stoking the EON/LOI conflict, organizing the initial FEC assault, and fighting with GTA and then mercing for RA I tried to prevent equilibrium or one side being completely destroyed. It's a loosing battle when you are fighting against the core design of PC where you earn more money by farming then fighting. Maybe now that Planetary Conquest is essentially destroyed it will finally free up CCP to change the current paradigm and see what happens. The problem is that with a system that is even limping along there is the desire to maintain the status quo and not try bold experiments. With essentially the endgame of PC reached as was predicted by Free Beers before PC even launched you can't really screw up PC any more than it is right now. As for working with the CCP community team there are folks that will still run some events through CCP, but there is something awesome about players taking the sandbox that is Planetary Conquest and truly shaping it into something unique that I don't think has ever been seen in gaming. We are on a new frontier and blazing the trail as we go, but I'm sure it will be a fun ride however it ends up. Sometimes things crashing down can provide as much content and entertainment as building them up.
Kain, can you address the disconnect between your concept and DNS Black's statements? Serious question, btw.
If there is serious difference between you and Black's vision of this concept that further concerns me as to why we should want to support this. If there is no difference...that really concerns me more.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
912
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Posted - 2014.04.17 23:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Spero, if you haven't heard the podcast, you might want to set aside some time for that before you keep defending DNSBlack. You really need to realize exactly what you're defending.
Kain, did you get a chance to listen to it? I thought you had...if you hadn't it makes sense why you are carrying water for DNS Black and the Dirt Nap League idea.
Seriously...even my EVE guys that don't want anything to do with Dust all pinged me immediately with "WTF?!" messages. A lot of them decided right then not to vote for him for CSM or regretted putting him on their ballets based on how he acted to folks on the podcast and the TWL rep and the ideas he was putting out for Dust and most of them don't even have PS3s.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
920
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Posted - 2014.04.18 14:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Stiddlefaxq wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Without having someone gobble up all of Molden Heath I doubt the anti-passive ISK discussion would have been able to gain as much traction.
Of course not... People only don't like passive isk if somebody else is getting all of it.
I disagree with that. While the nearly complete blue donut has increased some interest passive ISK and the game imbalances that it creates have been discussed for months. I don't doubt that the recent activity has piqued some additional responses but saying that it's simply about "i'm not getting so its a problem" is pretty far of the mark.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
921
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Posted - 2014.04.18 19:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:I have now listened to the podcast.
I had a meeting last night with TWL and DNSBlack and I have put the relationship between DNS dot and TWL on hold. When it comes to matters of Dust 514 and the Dust community DNSBlack will now be deferring to me. The Dirt Nap League has also now been put on hold indefinitely.
After FanFest the PFC will be reestablished and it WILL NOT require membership in DNS dot to participate. I will continue my discussions with the PFC Council and its administrator and seek their advice on how best to kick off PFC 2.0. There will be consideration given to Bosena also being reopened as Thunderdome so that Fittaken can be established as a community zone. I appreciate my friends in the community that brought this situation to my attention.
The pursuit of 100% Molden Heath control will continue in the meantime to exemplify the broken nature of key mechanics such as passive ISK and the inept tools of war such as anemic clone packs.
I appreciate your post on this. I'm glad you understood where the concerned negative reaction was coming from. Unfortunately, it's still going to continue to paint anything you guys actually try to do for the community as long a you've got DNS tags. In all honesty, I thought you were sharp to sharp to be so closely associated with someone like DNS Black.
ESL is a great idea as an adjunct to Dust and I think you are offering a legitimate service with PFC. That said, It is not a great idea as a shaky substitution for a game mode enforced on the community by those who are in the position to take advantage of admittedly bad mechanics.
As i said, if we get the actual tools to put things together for a robust player driven arena system that is DISTINCT from PC I will be there in an instant to help out.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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