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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 17:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:DEZKA DIABLO wrote:I don't really see a balance in this, is the gal supposed to be unstoppable with dampening?
I'm to tired to do maths, and I kinda been not paying much attention to exact numbers since the 1.8 changes, all I know is gal scout an two damps trumps my cal.
Sure it's fine if you got backup but shouldn't cal see all? To me gal gets 4 bonuses
Range
Reps
Damps
And the ability to be a ghosts
The passive abilitys cancel one another out an because of percision mods being 20% and damps being 25% and stacking plus cloaks a gal is always gonna hide and kill us.
Is this right ? Should enhances be equal? If you take a look at how the cal and gal scout would work without that free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening mod you would see the meta actually makes sense. By default suits have lower dampening values than precision, meaning they are hidden by default. Without the cloaky dampening bonus, 1 enhancer allows you to see an equal sized suit. 1 dampener hides you from an equal sized suit with an enhancer. So in the end, with this interplay, in order to hide from a 4 precision enhanced suit would require 4 profile dampeners, which is balanced. Actually I am not 100% sure that 4 precision enhancers would pick up a 3 dampener suit, and if not maybe the precision enhancers should get bumped to 25% rather than 20%.
I haven't checked to see if there was a reply to this, but! You are wrong sir. Without a cloak a prototype Gallente Scout is completely invisible as long as they have 2 proto profile dampeners. Only 2 and a full 4 proto precision enhancers and prototype caldari scout will not be able to see you. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't even be picked up by the best active scanner being used by a proto gallente logi.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 17:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:BrotherofHavok wrote:Something Previously in Topic You are right. I guess I got that one wrong. 2 damps on a gal scout is 13.8, 4 enhancers on a caldari is 14.9. See that is not right, there is a two module disparity there that gets even worse with cloaks. Kudos.
Plus, with the bonus to reduction of CPU and PG requirements of cloaks the cloak is pretty much a permanent equipment of prototype scouts. So most Gallente scouts wouldn't even need more than a single profile dampener. Meaning that a Gal Scout can dampener tank, armor tank, and shield tank due to the small CPU and PG requirements of the armor mods and profile dampeners & cloak.
It is not uncommon for me to see Gal scouts running around with 300-500 armor and about 200 shields and for them to be invisible.
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 17:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
JP Acuna wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:JP Acuna wrote:Aszazel wrote:
Here's the thing, every suit has it's advantages, the only reason that Gal's get the attention is because we have the dampening + the lows slots for more dampening. Cal's get precision + high slots for more precision. If Gal's couldn't get below Cal's, Cal's would be THE MOST powerful suit in the game. Just because Gal's get the dampening doesn't mean they can't run into another Gal or get low enough precision to see other scouts.
That's it. The argument is not that the gal shouldn't beat the caldari suit.. it is that the gallente using 1 mod and a cloak beats the caldari using 4 mods. They are both bonused against eachother.... so this interplay is not balanced. WRONG. Caldari with 4 complex precision enhancers= -6 db (negative) Precision Gallente with 1 complex dampener and cloak= 5.25 dbProfile Correct me if you can.
Easily.
Proto Cal Scout + 4 Proto Precision Enhancers = 14.9985648 Precision
Proto Gal Scout + 2 Proto Profile Dampeners = 13.820625 Profile
Proto Gal Scout + 1 Proto Profile Dampener + Cloak = 13.2890625 Profile
Proto Gal Logi + Proto Active Scanner = 15 Scan DB
Gallente is overpowered by virtue of needing less modules to do more than 4 modules.
Sincerely,
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 18:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aszazel wrote:
Not really, they aren't meant to go head to head. Out of the box, the gal is under everything but can't see the cal, and the cal can see everything except the gal. Adding modules (assuming you go one for one) shouldn't change that fact. As it is, the Cal CAN see MOST gal's cause most gal's don't bother running a dampener. Its your issue if you want to run more precisions then needed. At level 5, the cal sees EVERY OTHER SUIT not running a damp. They are equally OP.
I would actually like to see Amarr scout get buffed. I think the Min scout is pretty on par, you get different bonuses true, but you can do a hack in under 2 secs as well; maybe a slight buff in PG.
Technically you are wrong. Without the Gal Scout bonus to profile dampener other scouts would still not have too difficult of a time avoiding cal scouts. 3 proto profile dampners would avoid everything besides a cal scout with 4 precision enhancers or a proto gal logi with the best active scanner.
True, this means that minmatar scouts would need to put all slots to profile dampener and still be seen (unless they put a cloak on the suit) and the amarr scout would be able to avoid everything with 4 profile dampeners (without cloak), but I am completly happy with this. Should a Cal scout be able to see everything? No, but the scouts should need to work at avoiding it just as the Cal scout needs to put 4 precision enhancers to see something that isn't tanked out the wha-zoo with profile dampeners.
I agree that when against non-scouts the cal scout seems op, but if a cal scout doesn't have any precision modules then heavies can actually sneak by with 3 profile dampeners. Does that seem a lot? Sure, but it's a heavy it should be easier to see. A medium suit only needs 2 profile dampeners and with 2-5 slots across the board it really isn't a hard thing to do.
Geez, what is my point? If players put in the effort they should remain hidden, or be able to see. If there is no effort then screw them.
Sincerely,
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 18:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aszazel wrote:BrotherofHavok wrote: Should a Cal scout be able to see everything? No, but the scouts should need to work at avoiding it just as the Cal scout needs to put 4 precision enhancers to see something that isn't tanked out the wha-zoo with profile dampeners.. What the hell are you talking about? A Cal scout shouldn't be able to see everything; but its unfair that I can't see a Gal running only one profile dampener? Dude, if a Cal could run 1 complex precision and see an uncloaked Gal running zero dampeners (oh, wait they CAN) than THAT IS EVERYTHING. How many slots should I sacrifice for defense against one suit? Since 1.8 I have been running with ZERO dampeners, I have been killed maybe three times by Cal's, but you know what?, even when they know where I am I usually can outgun them because they have sacrificed all their eHP for precision. Likewise, I am NOT running a thousand dampeners to combat ONE suit. I have way more important fits to use. God, all this QQ'ing over 2 different scouts makes me want to take a shower, go try being an Amarr scout for a while, they are the ones having a hard time.
I'm not sure if I understand what you're arguing. If your saying that A Cal Scout with no precision mods should not be able to see a heavy then I think you're wrong. The fact of the matter is that the Scouts sacrifice a large portion of Armor and Shields just to be able to move faster and more accurately see their targets. If all a scout is suppose to do is be a flanker than they shouldn't have used the name "scout" and I would just put a series of Kin Cats on a heavy or medium suit to do the same job.
If you're saying that a scout should never be able to see any suit (even if all other suits are not using a profile dampner) then I ask what the point of a scout is. The fact of the matter is that every scout can see other suits without the use of precision mods or scout suit bonuses. It's just how they were designed.
If you're saying that a Cal scout should use all 4 high slots for precision enhancers just to see a heavy... then you're stupidity is endless.
However, you do make a good point, even if you are seen you can probably outgun me. Then the question becomes what is your problem? Why should it bother you?
How many slots should you sacrifice to counter 1 suit then the question becomes how many slots have they sacrificed to see/hide from you? A gal scout with 2 mods should not beat a cal scout with 4 precision mods. End of story.
Sincerely,
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 19:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aszazel wrote:That is exactly what I am saying, because a Cal that runs 4 complex precision mods is only doing so to be able to see a dampened gal scout, which he should never be able to do. Because the Gal scout is the only counter to the Cal's precision and every suit needs a counter. As it is, if you run 4 precisions you WILL be able to see any Gal that is running 1 complex dampener.
Why are we even talking about all this? We all knew the bonuses as 1.8 came out, why don't you be happy with what you already picked.
yes, 4 versus 1 I can see him, fine I got that. But there is a major imbalance here when 1 more profile damp can make the gal invisible to me.
Yes, if you sacrifce your eHP modules for detection mods then you should be able to see more. It also means you should be able to die faster, no problems there. Why is it then that that Gal scouts only need 1 profile dampener and a cloak to remain invisible to me? What about their other 3 low slots? armor modules? speed modules? What about my 4 high slots? oh wait, they're already taken up by precision mods. Do you see the imbalance here?
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 22:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Umma Kabula wrote:
THIS.
I wouldn't say it with better words. You can see almost EVERY SUIT IN THE GAME EXCEPT 1. deal with it.
I have both gal and cal. They're both GREAT. they have different roles and playstyles. if you can't manage this that's your problem. You can see amarr and minnie AS SOON AS THEY DECLOAK. doesn't tihis seem right to you?
Were you a gallogi before 1.8, right?
Yes, Cal's can see most units, is it right? Nope. Can every other scout in the game see every non-scout dropsuit? Yep.
Do they have different playstyles? Dependent solely upon the player.
Is it right that a Min and Amarr Scout can be seen when they decloak if they only have 1 or 2 profile dampeners while the Cal Scout has 2 or 3 precision enhancers? Yep. Why? Because its more fair. A Cal scout has to place more mods on because you do not have equal percentages to profile dampeners. When you take away the cloak you should be seen.
Was I a gallente logi before 1.8? Nope. Minmatar Logi, Minmatar Scout, Minmatar Assault. And I sacrificed 2 low slots for profile dampeners to avoid advanced active scanners. Was I seen by proto scanners? Yes, because the cost versus the benefit of putting on more profile dampeners was too high. However, to avoid the spamming of basics and advanced active scanners the cost/benefit ratio was within acceptable ranges. Was I easier to kill? Yes, but it was a tradeoff to avoid some players.
Just like with the Minmatar, the Amarr, and the Caldari Scouts. You sacrifice some of your slots to avoid or see certain players. The Gallente? Most don't need to sacrifice a single slot since they have the 25% bonus of the suit skill itself and the 25% bonus of ALL cloaks. If I have 3 or more precision mods then they need only 1 profile dampener to avoid me.
I accept that I must sacrifice some of my slots to be able to see players but CCP has made it too easy for other scouts to avoid the cal scout. Am I bitching about 1 type of suit versus all the other suits? Maybe I am, but what I'm really complaining about is that they have made it too easy to profile damp scouts and have created an imbalance.
I'm sorry if no one else shares in my opinion. I'm not trying to ask for a buff to cal scouts, I'm just asking for a little more fair play and sacrifice.
Sincerely,
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 23:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:Hate this. With max skills and equal number of enhancers / damps for the Caldari and Gallente scout respectively, the Gallente scout will always hide from a Caldari scout.
It should be the other way around, with the cloak throwing the balance to the Gallente's favor to hide.
Seems perfectly reasonable. Equal number of modules, bonuses... yes, the cloak would be a good deciding factor. +1. +1 for actually paying attention to what the thread was about (if I could I would have given you the second +1).
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 23:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
sebastian the huds wrote:Scout ck.0
4 complex shield extenders
2 enhanced shield regulators
1 adv cloak
Adv weapon of choice
I would say that this fit is able to kill anything it targets.
Plus, gal scout can hide from cal scout passive; but this is where player skill kicks in and says
"That scout probably doesn't have much tank, so if I find him with my eyes he is a dead man."
Nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.15 23:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:Aszazel wrote:If you take the base suits of each, the Gal gets under the Cal, it's been advertised this way before the suits even came out. Why should a specific number of enhancers or dampeners change this? Every person in this post that has b!tched has done so because they want to be able to see ALL suits if they equip all precisions. I don't see any of them stating that they would be ok with the fact that if they ran 4 precisions and gal ran 4 dampeners and they couldn't see them it would be fair. It's not about the number of modules, its about the fact that you can't see them. If you can't see them at base, you shouldn't be able to see them at max if they are both at max.
QQ'ers, Gal can't run more than 2 precisions and doing so, can't see other scouts with 1 complex dampeners + cloak. Stop whining that your suit isn't OP enough. You've completely missed the point. The Caldari suit is designed to see. The Gallente suit is designed to not be seen. One of them will have to trump the other. It turns out the the Gallente suit beats out the Caldari suit. If skills are equal, the Caldari fits an enhancer and can see the Gallente (unless the Gallente is cloaked). If the Gallente fits a damp, it's invisible again. The cloak tips the balance extremely to the Gallente, so the above pattern should be changed. The way is should be is that with max skills (using this as a baseline, not because I don't understand if you take the base suits of each, the Gal gets under the Cal), the Gallente should have to fit a damp to hide from the Caldari. If the Caldari fits an enhancer, he should see the Gallente. If the Gallente cloaks, with max skills and equal number of damps/enhancers, the Gallente should be hidden from the Caldari.
Thank you. +1. Wasn't sure if some people could read properly.
I can not make my argument more clear. I am not saying that the Caldari SHOULD be able to see the gallente scout. I'm not saying that I want a buff to the Caldari scout in any way what-so-ever. I'm asking that there is more equality in EWAR. 4 modules versus 1 module and cloak is not equal. If the Gal Scout wishes to remain invisible versus a Cal scout then he/she should have to sacrifice more of those low slots to avoid Cal scouts or Gallente Logis.
Base stats already dictate that gallente should be able to avoid cal scouts. Fine. However, CCP has then created the imbalance in EWAR. Realize that this is the ******* point I am trying to make! There is an imbalance in EWAR. That means that there needs to be a PROPER adjustment that does not make something OP but rather powerful enough to do something only, and I do mean ONLY, to be if they are weak enough in some other scenario.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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BrotherofHavok
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Posted - 2014.04.16 00:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Some REALLY HARD Facts for you all:
Gallente Scout - Cloak & Bonus
35 Base scan profile
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
25% Scout Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
25% cloak dampener effect = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875
1st dampener = 17.71875 * 75% = 13.2890625
2nd dampener = 13.2890625 * 78% = 10.36546875
3rd dampener = 10.36546875 * 86% = 8.914303125
4th dampener = 8.914303125 * 93% = 8.29030190625
Gallente Scout - No Cloak
35 Base scan profile
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
25% Scout Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
1st dampener = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875
2nd dampener = 17.71875 * 78% = 13.820625
3rd dampener = 13.820625 * 86% = 11.8857375
4th dampener = 11.8857375 * 93% = 11.053735875
Gallente Scout - No bonus (What I would like)
10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5
25% Cloak Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625
1st dampener = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875
2nd dampener = 17.71875 * 78% = 13.820625
3rd dampener = 13.820625 * 86% = 11.8857375
4th dampener = 11.8857375 * 93% = 11.053735875
Caldari Scout
40 Base Scan Precision
10% Precision Bonus = 40 * 90% = 36
Scout Bonus (Caldari) = 36 * 75% = 27
1st Precision Enhancer = 27 * 80% = 21.6
2nd Precision Enhancer = 21.6 * 83% = 17.928
3rd Precision Enhancer = 17.928 * 89% = 15.95592
4th Precision Enhancer = 15.95592 * 94% = 14.9985648
Minmatar/Amarr Scout
40 Base Scan Precision
10% Precision Bonus = 40 * 90% = 36
1st Precision Enhancer = 36 * 80% = 28.8
2nd Precision Enhancer = 28.8 * 83% = 23.904
3rd Precision Enhancer = 23.904 * 89% = 21.27456
4th Precision Enhancer = 21.27456 * 94% = 19.9980864
Gallente Logi (proto)
Precision mods do not affect the active scanner!!!!!
Proto Active Scanner = 15db
This will be my last response. From this we can see that a Gal Scout needs 1 profile Dampener and cloak to remain invisible to everyone in the game.
My recommendations? Change the Gallente Scout bonus off of profile Dampening AT THE ******* LEAST! With that 25% bonus gone you can see that a Gallente Scout can still remain invisible to EVERYONE IN THE GAME with just 2 profile dampeners and a cloak.
To those who can read, to those who understand the topic of this thread, to those who can do the math for yourself what I'm saying should be understandable. If you don't like it, fine, if you like it good.
To the Trolls and Idiots, I'm done with you. I have neither the time nor the patience to deal with 'your people' any more. Go back and read my posts in this thread and have a nice day.
Sincerely,
Your Multi-purpose Everything User
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