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Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 176	Posted - 2014.04.15 16:26:00 - [1] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Not trolling : 4 PE on a Cal scout picks up a 3 PD Gal Scout but 4 PE Doesn't pick up a 4 PD Gal Scout... Not just saying stuff.. I run PE in my Cal Scout, tested it against 3/4 PD gal scout... When it comes to Gal Scout with 4 PD... Only our eyes can save us... But a 4 PD gal scout won't be that hard to kill once spotted, it won't be brick tanked... Here's the thing, every suit has it's advantages, the only reason that Gal's get the attention is because we have the dampening + the lows slots for more dampening. Cal's get precision + high slots for more precision. If Gal's couldn't get below Cal's, Cal's would be THE MOST powerful suit in the game. Just because Gal's get the dampening doesn't mean they can't run into another Gal or get low enough precision to see other scouts. All of these arguments are factoring in end game stats. I have been a scout for 7 months and I still don't have complex range, dampening OR precision.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 177	Posted - 2014.04.15 18:07:00 - [2] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: BrotherofHavok wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DEZKA DIABLO wrote: I don't really see a balance in this, is the gal supposed to be unstoppable with dampening? I'm to tired to do maths, and I kinda been not paying much attention to exact numbers since the 1.8 changes, all I know is gal scout an two damps trumps my cal. Sure it's fine if you got backup but shouldn't cal see all? To me gal gets 4 bonuses Range Reps Damps And the ability to be a ghosts The passive abilitys cancel one another out an because of percision mods being 20% and damps being 25% and stacking plus cloaks a gal is always gonna hide and kill us. Is this right ? Should enhances be equal? If you take a look at how the cal and gal scout would work without that free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening mod you would see the meta actually makes sense. By default suits have lower dampening values than precision, meaning they are hidden by default. Without the cloaky dampening bonus, 1 enhancer allows you to see an equal sized suit. 1 dampener hides you from an equal sized suit with an enhancer. So in the end, with this interplay, in order to hide from a 4 precision enhanced suit would require 4 profile dampeners, which is balanced. Actually I am not 100% sure that 4 precision enhancers would pick up a 3 dampener suit, and if not maybe the precision enhancers should get bumped to 25% rather than 20%. I haven't checked to see if there was a reply to this, but! You are wrong sir. Without a cloak a prototype Gallente Scout is completely invisible as long as they have 2 proto profile dampeners. Only 2 and a full 4 proto precision enhancers and prototype caldari scout will not be able to see you. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't even be picked up by the best active scanner being used by a proto gallente logi. You are right. I guess I got that one wrong. 2 damps on a gal scout is 13.8, 4 enhancers on a caldari is 14.9. See that is not right, there is a two module disparity there that gets even worse with cloaks. Kudos. Not really, they aren't meant to go head to head. Out of the box, the gal is under everything but can't see the cal, and the cal can see everything except the gal. Adding modules (assuming you go one for one) shouldn't change that fact. As it is, the Cal CAN see MOST gal's cause most gal's don't bother running a dampener. Its your issue if you want to run more precisions then needed. At level 5, the cal sees EVERY OTHER SUIT not running a damp. They are equally OP. I would actually like to see Amarr scout get buffed. I think the Min scout is pretty on par, you get different bonuses true, but you can do a hack in under 2 secs as well; maybe a slight buff in PG.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 177	Posted - 2014.04.15 18:43:00 - [3] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: Should a Cal scout be able to see everything? No, but the scouts should need to work at avoiding it just as the Cal scout needs to put 4 precision enhancers to see something that isn't tanked out the wha-zoo with profile dampeners.. What the hell are you talking about? A Cal scout shouldn't be able to see everything; but its unfair that I can't see a Gal running only one profile dampener? Dude, if a Cal could run 1 complex precision and see an uncloaked Gal running zero dampeners (oh, wait they CAN) than THAT IS EVERYTHING. How many slots should I sacrifice for defense against one suit? Since 1.8 I have been running with ZERO dampeners, I have been killed maybe three times by Cal's, but you know what?, even when they know where I am I usually can outgun them because they have sacrificed all their eHP for precision. Likewise, I am NOT running a thousand dampeners to combat ONE suit. I have way more important fits to use. God, all this QQ'ing over 2 different scouts makes me want to take a shower, go try being an Amarr scout for a while, they are the ones having a hard time.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 178	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:00:00 - [4] - Quote That is exactly what I am saying, because a Cal that runs 4 complex precision mods is only doing so to be able to see a dampened gal scout, which he should never be able to do. Because the Gal scout is the only counter to the Cal's precision and every suit needs a counter. As it is, if you run 4 precisions you WILL be able to see any Gal that is running 1 complex dampener. Why are we even talking about all this? We all knew the bonuses as 1.8 came out, why don't you be happy with what you already picked.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 180	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:19:00 - [5] - Quote First of all, its not my problem that you are taking the faster shield regen scout with the most high slots and not using any of them for shield extenders. Secondly, my point remains that all of your precision modules are to defeat the one class that you aren't meant to defeat. Why don't you accept that you can see 95% of all enemies with 1 complex precision mod and live with the fact that you may get killed by a Gal, (I use my eyes, they are OP). And thirdly, you're argument is two sided. I can't stack more than two complex precision mods in my highs, and I will still not be able to see you if you run ONE DAMPENER cause CAL's SEE BETTER and GAL'S HIDE BETTER. JUST ACCEPT YOUR ROLE.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 181	Posted - 2014.04.15 20:02:00 - [6] - Quote This is a little ridiculous, I don't play eve, but I'd imagine that if you devoted the entirety of your ship to running one module you would probably beat out other ships that can do it easier, but you wouldn't live very long once you got into a fight. People keep trying to make fits to break the game so they can be OP. I know people that run 4 kin kats even though with stacking penalties you only get 0.30 meters per sec out of the last one. Cal's can't see Gal's. Cal's can put crazy unnecessary fittings to see some Gal's. Gal's can get just as crazy to beat Cal's. All scouts can fill up all their slots to beat Cal's. Why even run these other suits if all you are focusing on is one other suit. Why not run a Gal logi with a focused scanner? Just play how you want to play. The dampeners are at 25% and the precisions are at 20%. It makes sense if you look at other classes then scouts. Heavies are 60/55, Assaults are 50/50, Logi's are 50/45 and Scouts are 35/45. Aside from scouts, all suit profiles are higher than precision, so they need a higher dampener bonus to be able to get lower. Pre 1.8 the scouts were just like the other suits.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 187	Posted - 2014.04.15 23:09:00 - [7] - Quote If you take the base suits of each, the Gal gets under the Cal, it's been advertised this way before the suits even came out. Why should a specific number of enhancers or dampeners change this? Every person in this post that has b!tched has done so because they want to be able to see ALL suits if they equip all precisions. I don't see any of them stating that they would be ok with the fact that if they ran 4 precisions and gal ran 4 dampeners and they couldn't see them it would be fair. It's not about the number of modules, its about the fact that you can't see them. If you can't see them at base, you shouldn't be able to see them at max if they are both at max. QQ'ers, Gal can't run more than 2 precisions and doing so, can't see other scouts with 1 complex dampeners + cloak. Stop whining that your suit isn't OP enough.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 187	Posted - 2014.04.16 00:01:00 - [8] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Aszazel wrote: If you take the base suits of each, the Gal gets under the Cal, it's been advertised this way before the suits even came out. Why should a specific number of enhancers or dampeners change this? Every person in this post that has b!tched has done so because they want to be able to see ALL suits if they equip all precisions. I don't see any of them stating that they would be ok with the fact that if they ran 4 precisions and gal ran 4 dampeners and they couldn't see them it would be fair. It's not about the number of modules, its about the fact that you can't see them. If you can't see them at base, you shouldn't be able to see them at max if they are both at max. QQ'ers, Gal can't run more than 2 precisions and doing so, can't see other scouts with 1 complex dampeners + cloak. Stop whining that your suit isn't OP enough. You've completely missed the point. The Caldari suit is designed to see. The Gallente suit is designed to not be seen. One of them will have to trump the other. It turns out the the Gallente suit beats out the Caldari suit. If skills are equal, the Caldari fits an enhancer and can see the Gallente (unless the Gallente is cloaked). If the Gallente fits a damp, it's invisible again. The cloak tips the balance extremely to the Gallente, so the above pattern should be changed. The way is should be is that with max skills (using this as a baseline, not because I don't understand if you take the base suits of each, the Gal gets under the Cal), the Gallente should have to fit a damp to hide from the Caldari. If the Caldari fits an enhancer, he should see the Gallente. If the Gallente cloaks, with max skills and equal number of damps/enhancers, the Gallente should be hidden from the Caldari. Thank you. +1. Wasn't sure if some people could read properly. I can not make my argument more clear. I am not saying that the Caldari SHOULD be able to see the gallente scout. I'm not saying that I want a buff to the Caldari scout in any way what-so-ever. I'm asking that there is more equality in EWAR. 4 modules versus 1 module and cloak is not equal. If the Gal Scout wishes to remain invisible versus a Cal scout then he/she should have to sacrifice more of those low slots to avoid Cal scouts or Gallente Logis. Base stats already dictate that gallente should be able to avoid cal scouts. Fine. However, CCP has then created the imbalance in EWAR. Realize that this is the ******* point I am trying to make! There is an imbalance in EWAR. That means that there needs to be a PROPER adjustment that does not make something OP but rather powerful enough to do something only, and I do mean ONLY, to be if they are weak enough in some other scenario. Get off your soapbox, the cloak counts as a dampener, its that way for al suits, its doesn't have a 100% up time and every other scout suit (+ some logis and commandos) gets to wear one. They are by no means cheap to equip even if you have suit level 5. The "problem" you keep coming too is that you have to add more precision mods to counter my dampeners + cloak and you top out before me. You want to be able to see every suit, there is NOTHING wrong with EWAR, there SHOULD be a hard counter to CAL. But fine, take away cloak bonus for all, cause its not fair that I can only hold two precision enhancers and still can't see a cloaked scout. See I can QQ about the state of the EWAR too.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 187	Posted - 2014.04.16 00:19:00 - [9] - Quote Here is the thing I guess I am not getting about all this whining, say they buff precision to 25% instead of 20% so they are in line with dampeners. Gal's start at 35db profile, and Cal's start at 45db precision, so with the cloak that all suits equally get the 25% bonus for, and adding the gal's suit bonus, and the cal's suit bonus. You will still top out of precision before the gal tops out in dampening. So this post is pointless unless your aim is to increase precision modules and to make other suits more powerful at picking up scouts. Your argument to buff precision would be pointless in the gal vs cal example. So what do you want to whine about next here? remove the bonus for cloaks to all suits? A finite resource that requires intelligent management so you have it when you need it? Make the game as dumbed down as possible?
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 187	Posted - 2014.04.16 00:21:00 - [10] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Aszazel wrote: Get off your soapbox, the cloak counts as a dampener, its that way for al suits, its doesn't have a 100% up time and every other scout suit (+ some logis and commandos) gets to wear one. They are by no means cheap to equip even if you have suit level 5. The "problem" you keep coming too is that you have to add more precision mods to counter my dampeners + cloak and you top out before me. You want to be able to see every suit, there is NOTHING wrong with EWAR, there SHOULD be a hard counter to CAL. But fine, take away cloak bonus for all, cause its not fair that I can only hold two precision enhancers and still can't see a cloaked scout. See I can QQ about the state of the EWAR too. See, this is a totally subjective thing. Watch this. You want to be able to hide from every suit, there is NOTHING wrong with EWAR, there SHOULD be a hard counter to GAL. I can QQ about subjective BS without a well thought out argument, too. There IS a hard counter to GAL's, we can't see any other scouts or other gal's. We may be unscannable but we are running blind, thats why I learned to use my OP eyes.

Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 187	Posted - 2014.04.16 00:24:00 - [11] - Quote Not to mention a Gal Logi with bonus running a focused scanner will pick up any gal that doesn't have 3 dampeners on,
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 187	Posted - 2014.04.16 00:41:00 - [12] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: Some REALLY HARD Facts for you all: Gallente Scout - Cloak & Bonus 35 Base scan profile 10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5 25% Scout Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625 25% cloak dampener effect = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875 1st dampener = 17.71875 * 75% = 13.2890625 2nd dampener = 13.2890625 * 78% = 10.36546875 3rd dampener = 10.36546875 * 86% = 8.914303125 4th dampener = 8.914303125 * 93% = 8.29030190625 Gallente Scout - No Cloak 35 Base scan profile 10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5 25% Scout Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625 1st dampener = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875 2nd dampener = 17.71875 * 78% = 13.820625 3rd dampener = 13.820625 * 86% = 11.8857375 4th dampener = 11.8857375 * 93% = 11.053735875 Gallente Scout - No bonus (What I would like) 10% Dampener bonus itself = 35 * 90% = 31.5 25% Cloak Bonus (Gallente) = 31.5 * 75% = 23.625 1st dampener = 23.625 * 75% = 17.71875 2nd dampener = 17.71875 * 78% = 13.820625 3rd dampener = 13.820625 * 86% = 11.8857375 4th dampener = 11.8857375 * 93% = 11.053735875 Caldari Scout 40 Base Scan Precision 10% Precision Bonus = 40 * 90% = 36 Scout Bonus (Caldari) = 36 * 75% = 27 1st Precision Enhancer = 27 * 80% = 21.6 2nd Precision Enhancer = 21.6 * 83% = 17.928 3rd Precision Enhancer = 17.928 * 89% = 15.95592 4th Precision Enhancer = 15.95592 * 94% = 14.9985648 Minmatar/Amarr Scout 40 Base Scan Precision 10% Precision Bonus = 40 * 90% = 36 1st Precision Enhancer = 36 * 80% = 28.8 2nd Precision Enhancer = 28.8 * 83% = 23.904 3rd Precision Enhancer = 23.904 * 89% = 21.27456 4th Precision Enhancer = 21.27456 * 94% = 19.9980864 Gallente Logi (proto) Precision mods do not affect the active scanner!!!!! Proto Active Scanner = 15db This will be my last response. From this we can see that a Gal Scout needs 1 profile Dampener and cloak to remain invisible to everyone in the game. My recommendations? Change the Gallente Scout bonus off of profile Dampening AT THE ******* LEAST! With that 25% bonus gone you can see that a Gallente Scout can still remain invisible to EVERYONE IN THE GAME with just 2 profile dampeners and a cloak. To those who can read, to those who understand the topic of this thread, to those who can do the math for yourself what I'm saying should be understandable. If you don't like it, fine, if you like it good. To the Trolls and Idiots, I'm done with you. I have neither the time nor the patience to deal with 'your people' any more. Go back and read my posts in this thread and have a nice day. You would not need to show what the Gal would be like without the suit bonus because that is the current state of EVERY CURRENT SCOUT SUIT. I will grant you all the numbers would be fairer if all scout had a base of 40 db instead of 35. And I know that Gallenete Logi precision modules do not increase the scanner. however, the BONUS TO Gallanete Logi is 5% better scan per level WITH A SCANNER. So it would be 15db * 0.25 = 11.25 db The Gal scout had a bonus to dampening before 1.8, so you are asking to do away with a bonus to a suit cause your suit that didn't exist 4 weeks ago can't see it.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 187	Posted - 2014.04.16 00:45:00 - [13] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Actually, I looked over numbers again in protofits. For some reason I thought enhancers and dampeners gave the same bonus. I thought without mods, the Gallente would be hidden and the Caldari scout would need to fit one mod (1 enhancer) to see the Gallente. The Gallente would need to fit one mod (1 dampener) to hide again, and the Caldari would need to fit one more (2 enhancers). I thought it would continue like that 1 for 1. I was wrong. Assume max skills for all the examples below. A Caldari scout with four complex precision enhancers CANNOT see a Gallente scout with two complex profile dampeners. The Caldari scout has a scan precision of 14.91. The Gallente scout has a scan profile of 13.87. The lower number wins. That's bullshit. Actually, if the Gallente scout has just one complex profile dampener, the Caldari scout needs three complex precision enhancers to see him. That's even more bullshit. gallente cannot see a caldari if the caldari is wearing 2 comp damps and the gal is wearing two comp precisions Are you kidding? A Gal can't see a Cal with two comp precisions even if the cal only has ONE dampener + cloak, the CAL is the only suit that gets this bonus and its awesome. That's why I keep arguing with everyone, your suit is awesome, stop complaining that its not awesome.

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