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Swarms and the Placebo effect...

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Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 149	Posted - 2014.04.12 22:55:00 - [1] - Quote So once upon a time I was a brand new, green merc and was deciding what I wanted to specialize in. I thought it might be cool to be a dedicated anti-vehicle player and as such I tried out the starter AV blueprint with a militia swarm launcher. Once. Never again. Months later I know the importance of skill points and passives. I run a Minmatar Commando (CR/MD) post-1.8 and I know that I have a damage bonus to explosives as well as a fat reload bonus. I decide it might be fun to try a swarm launcher again. (For background, I have 3 points in my commando for +6% damage and +15% reload speed, and I always, always, always run a damage mod in my high slot. Basic, enhanced, or complex...always the best I can fit in) So just for fun I try a militia swarm launcher and see that it's not completely laughable...mostly, but not completely. So I skill into swarm launchers to level 2 so that I can try the assault variant. I know the damage is the same, but I hate using militia weapons unless I have to, and it might be useful to need to lock onto two targets at once sometime (tankbush say what). I run a few games and find that it's not completely lackluster. In fact, it's pretty fun (I run CR/Swarms). So I drop a little bit more SP into it and start using the CBR-7. WOW. It feels sooooo much better than the STD level swarms. I take LAVs apart like wet tissue paper, and tanks/ADS turn and run after 2-3 hits. The added bonus of a faster reload makes a very, very big difference as well...the rate at which I can put 6-9-12 swarms in the air far, far outstrips a merc in any other suit. Is it just me? Is it the placebo effect? Or are ADV swarms really that much better than STD? If so I'm totally going proto. And soon. TL; DR: See the above line. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1787	Posted - 2014.04.12 22:59:00 - [2] - Quote This just demonstrates how ******* stupid it is that swarms scale by +25%/+50%. There's no way to have MLT be useful without making PRO completely OP. Seriously, we need to make them all 6 missiles, with a 5%/10% or 10%/20% damage boost for ADV/PRO. To answer your question: it's not in your head, ADV gets one more missile for +25% damage, PRO gets two more for +50%. Nerdier than thou
Asha Starwind 794	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:01:00 - [3] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Is it just me? Is it the placebo effect? Or are ADV swarms really that much better than STD? If so I'm totally going proto. And soon. You get an extra missile per volley in between tiers, plus minmando the damage bonus Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
Deltahawk Durango Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 199	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:01:00 - [4] - Quote ADV does 25% more damage than STD PRO does 20% more damage than ADV and 50% more damage than STD i put most of my points from MCC event into swarm launchers and don't regret it at all... i solo rail tanks with ease... I don't believe in an eye for an eye... I believe in two eyes for an eye!
Clone D 187	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:02:00 - [5] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Is it just me? Congradulations. CBR-7 is that much better than std launchers, however I wouldn't drop any more SP in going proto if I were you. The CBR-7 is a sweet launcher that packs a punch and when accompanying packed AV nades, it's sure to rock some pilot's or tanker's world. I try to build sweet cheap suits and at the CBR-7 price, you get a lot of damage for your ISK. I tried using damage modifiers with it as well, but it's really unnecessary. The launcher itself gets the job done. .
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6656	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:03:00 - [6] - Quote The real placebo effect, is the Minmatar Commando. Even with Level V your still doing less damage than you possibly could in Uprising 1.7. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 151	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:03:00 - [7] - Quote I knew I got an extra missile for an extra 220 damage (before damage modifiers), which obviously increases damage by 25%...but I think knowing the math and seeing it in action are so completely different in this case. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Boot Booter Algintal Core Gallente Federation 480	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:05:00 - [8] - Quote Not entirely sure if the swarm launcher is affected by minmatar commando bonus. I thought the swarm was a Caldari weapon. Maybe I'm wrong though.... SMG Specialist
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1787	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:06:00 - [9] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: I knew I got an extra missile for an extra 220 damage (before damage modifiers), which obviously increases damage by 25%...but I think knowing the math and seeing it in action are so completely different in this case. Mmmm... no, knowing the math pretty much does the trick. Nerdier than thou
THEAMAZING POTHEAD Nyain San Dirt Nap Squad. 1078	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:06:00 - [10] - Quote Its not placebo, each tier of swarms is far better than the tier below it, it scales far more than other weapons. However know that even with proto swarms proficiency 5 on a commando, you won't be able to scratch a good tanker, only the trash that run no hardeners or are using rails with damage mods to kill other tanks. You can kill the lavs since no one has decent lavs because they suck, but at the most you'll only force a halfway decent dropship or tank away til their modules are cooled down. If you're fine with just scaring away vehicles and goin 0/5 every match go ahead and skill into them all the way, but just be aware of the circumstances meaning you'll only kill vehicles that are jokes, while being a joke to and decent vehicles. Your post is making me facepalm very hard right now.

Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 151	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:06:00 - [11] - Quote Atiim wrote: The real placebo effect, is the Minmatar Commando. Even with Level V your still doing less damage than you possibly could in Uprising 1.7. I had 0 points in swarms before yesterday, so I wouldn't know about that. But as powerful as I feel with them right now I can't even imagine what it would have been like in 1.6 when the lock-on range was super-long-range (or so I've heard). Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1787	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:06:00 - [12] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Not entirely sure if the swarm launcher is affected by minmatar commando bonus. I thought the swarm was a Caldari weapon. Maybe I'm wrong though.... Explosive light weapon damage = MD + Swarm. https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/64862/1/damageprofiles.jpg Nerdier than thou
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 151	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:08:00 - [13] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Not entirely sure if the swarm launcher is affected by minmatar commando bonus. I thought the swarm was a Caldari weapon. Maybe I'm wrong though.... I remember thinking the same thing (because they are indeed caldari tech), but they do explosive damage and one of my regular squadmates did a "study" on it and found that the damage bonus seems to apply. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Boot Booter Algintal Core Gallente Federation 480	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:08:00 - [14] - Quote Hmm good to know.. Looks like my min commando is going to have some fun tonight SMG Specialist
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 153	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:09:00 - [15] - Quote THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: If you're fine with just scaring away vehicles and goin 0/5 every match go ahead and skill into them all the way, but just be aware of the circumstances meaning you'll only kill vehicles that are jokes, while being a joke to and decent vehicles. Nah, I'm a commando. My CR is always good for a few kills Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 153	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:12:00 - [16] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Hmm good to know.. Looks like my min commando is going to have some fun tonight My only problem is that I'll find myself in a situation where I wish I had a MD instead of swarms, and vice versa. My CR stays attached to my hip...besides, if I run MD/swarms (which I do have such a fit) I'm tied to my nanohive and the best hives I have are K-2...so once I get proto hives maybe I'll be more comfortable running around from place to place since I can drop more of them, but until then I'd prefer to keep my CR with me. That's one situation in which I really wish commandos could all carry 2 L weapons + 1 S. And grenades. For the love of god CCP, GRENADES!! Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6656	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:15:00 - [17] - Quote Though as the people above me have stated, no it's not in your head. STD Swarm Launchers deal 800HP (1056HP Armor / 704HP Shields) ADV Swarm Launchers deal 1100HP (1320HP Armor / 880HP Shields) PRO Swarm Launchers deal 1320HP (1584HP Armor / 1003HP Shields) If your liking theCBR-7 and CFG-129, just wait until you get the Wyrikomi and Ishukone SLs. You won't want to go back. Also, don't use the STD Assault Swarm Launcher. It won't even suppress a MLT LAV because your only doing 400HP to the target. At that point, your AV and suppression capabilities are about the same as a Breach Mass Driver. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 153	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:17:00 - [18] - Quote Right now I'm having wet dreams of fits with my M/1 Series Commando, Boundless CR and Wiyrkomi Swarms. Maybe my RS-90 to save PG/CPU. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 1870	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:18:00 - [19] - Quote the unfortunate part is that no matter what level of launcher, suit and dmg mods you have a tripple rep madrugar is still invincable to it due to the sheer passive reps and the fact that it reps back to full HP during your 35%faster reload.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6656	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:19:00 - [20] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Atiim wrote: The real placebo effect, is the Minmatar Commando. Even with Level V your still doing less damage than you possibly could in Uprising 1.7. I had 0 points in swarms before yesterday, so I wouldn't know about that. But as powerful as I feel with them right now I can't even imagine what it would have been like in 1.6 when the lock-on range was super-long-range (or so I've heard). They were powerful, but the Swarm Launcher AI wasn't that great. Don't believe the myths. If you were locking on a tower from 3-400m away, you weren't going to hit your target unless they were AFKing, or your playing on Manus Peak. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND

Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 157	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:20:00 - [21] - Quote Atiim wrote: about the same as a Breach Mass Driver. Funny story... A missile Maddy with ~1k armor left parked himself underneath me (I was on top of a tabletop) and proceeded to open up on a friendly tank right in front of him. He got the tank, but my Core BMD got him Yep. I got some hatemail that match. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 2005	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:20:00 - [22] - Quote If I'm bored I'll just get out of my tank and gun you down. I'm a carried scrub!
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 157	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:24:00 - [23] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: the unfortunate part is that no matter what level of launcher, suit and dmg mods you have a tripple rep madrugar is still invincable to it due to the sheer passive reps and the fact that it reps back to full HP during your 35%faster reload. Then I'll just have to hope for a friendly forge gunner to help me out with some high alpha damage. Atiim wrote: Don't believe the myths. If you were locking on a tower from 3-400m away, you weren't going to hit your target unless they were AFKing, or your playing on Manus Peak. I would imagine it could make life difficult for most dropship pilots other than those of Judge's caliber, yes? Certainly harder for them than tanks. Benjamin Ciscko wrote: If I'm bored I'll just get out of my tank and gun you down. Unless I gun you down first then blow up your tank out of spite. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6656	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:24:00 - [24] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Right now I'm having wet dreams of fits with my M/1 Series Commando, Boundless CR and Wiyrkomi Swarms. Maybe my RS-90 to save PG/CPU. You don't really need the RS-90 once you have the MinCommando up to Level III, and using the Boundless on it is just overkill XD If you really want to save CPU/PG, use Enhanced Damage Modifiers. It's only 1% less than the Complex tiers. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6656	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:26:00 - [25] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: If I'm bored I'll just get out of my tank and gun you down. Well considering how you run Minmatar Assault, I'd insta-gank you the moment you tried. I even killed duna2002 that way #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 157	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:32:00 - [26] - Quote Atiim wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Right now I'm having wet dreams of fits with my M/1 Series Commando, Boundless CR and Wiyrkomi Swarms. Maybe my RS-90 to save PG/CPU. You don't really need the RS-90 once you have the MinCommando up to Level III, and using the Boundless on it is just overkill XD If you really want to save CPU/PG, use Enhanced Damage Modifiers. It's only 1% less than the Complex tiers. Well, if I'm completely forthright my gun game really isn't all that good. I routinely miss shots that I know I should hit, and lose engagements that I really should win. While I would place myself solidly in the upper-middle of the pack in terms of skill at DUST, if I got all my WP from kills and none from repping/uplinks I would still be chillin around 6M SP. So I figure the Boundless, while costing significantly more ISK, may be that last little bit to help me win those engagements I currently lose by the skin of my teeth. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift?
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 1871	Posted - 2014.04.12 23:41:00 - [27] - Quote Atiim wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Atiim wrote: The real placebo effect, is the Minmatar Commando. Even with Level V your still doing less damage than you possibly could in Uprising 1.7. I had 0 points in swarms before yesterday, so I wouldn't know about that. But as powerful as I feel with them right now I can't even imagine what it would have been like in 1.6 when the lock-on range was super-long-range (or so I've heard). They were powerful, but the Swarm Launcher AI wasn't that great. Don't believe the myths. If you were locking on a tower from 3-400m away, you weren't going to hit your target unless they were AFKing, or your playing on Manus Peak. the problem wasnt in hitting your targets, its that by standing on nanohives you could output a CONTSTANT barrage of any vehicle inside your lock range, and surprizingly enough the missles travel FURTHER then you lock range, so once something gets into that 300m range you could unload 3 shots before the first hit the target and by the time the first shot hit if they wernt already moving outsside the swarm tracking range (different the lock range) then they had to eat a full 3 shots. this mean that anything within that giant 600m area of the map was then subject to constant swarm barrage untill it left making operating ANYWHERE on the map that wasnt the redline nearly impossable especially when you had more then 1 person doing it as sometimes it would mean instant death if you ventured to far into the swarms effective range and couldnt immediatly find cover. what happened was that good tankers would use cover to hide from swarms, but then hit from another direction and end up faced with death no matter what move they made becuase of the swarms constant unending super range barrage. it wasnt so much the swarms it was the sheer area they denyed by exsisting that was the problem.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1130	Posted - 2014.04.13 16:50:00 - [28] - Quote Trust me. Swarms have effect. Without bonus, a swarm can't break shield recharge. They can drop shield, but no reharge due to the fact you need to break like 175 HP in 1 hit, swarms hit 5x for 155 With bonus(i fit a damage mod becuase LolParanoia) i break shield regen through 1 hardener.(somehow) Edit: i also run a Boundless CR on my Proto commando, so Lol. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1130	Posted - 2014.04.13 17:14:00 - [29] - Quote Atiim wrote: The real placebo effect, is the Minmatar Commando. Even with Level V your still doing less damage than you possibly could in Uprising 1.7. Again, reload bonus. You lose like 15% damage potential or skmething for 25% reload. We're actually doing more now than 1.7, albeit less per missile, but more DPS. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 879	Posted - 2014.04.13 19:20:00 - [30] - Quote Do you know what happens when you shoot a standard HAV with a standard swarm launcher? Nothing. Nothing at all. Did you know what happens when you shoot a standard HAV with a proto swarm launcher and max skills? Something! But only wp after 2 and maybe a kill at number 4 Nemo me impune lacessit



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