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Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo
208
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
I want to get as much feedback and Idea's as possible before I make a actual post on Feedback and Ideas to deliver to the Devs.
Please keep in mind that scaling according to Skill points or gear alone really won't work without it over-complicating the game. Why?
Skill points are accured over time so anyone who has more than 1 million skills points will always be 1 million skill points ahead of the player unless he purchases boosters (if both players play the exact amount of time). Now there are more variables in place than simply time spent playing but we'll keep it simple for now as the end result will mostly remain the same as the early players will in most scenario's have more skill points.
Gear is not a reasonable means to balance matchmaking systems because players could initially change into prototype gear during combat anytime you wish given how you can create fits in the field. So essentially a player could play militia and than create a fit before spawning with full prototype gear.
So why is matchmaking balancing important for Dust 514?
Well Dust is a harsh place in the universe of New Eden but New players will find this as a difficult wall to overcome. Many Vets can agree the game was at its funnest when everyone was struggling to compete in equal terms and than when you see one prototype players everyone either focus on him immediately or flee to survive.
Competition is healthy as history has taught us, its was pushes us to become more competitive and strive for greatness, but if Competition is unattainable for new players or if Vets have no new competition to face (since new players serve as no threat to them) Dust will struggle to increase its player base.
Now should that mean Vets must handicap themselves to fit the needs of the New players... No... So I want people to give me Only constructive Idea's to filter into a single post to CCP about matchmaking so new players and Vets have a means to grow together. We all want to make this game achieve its goal, so post a idea.
(Note If you have a constructive argument why Gear and Skill points are a good matchmaking system leave a post with a detail explaination how you would balance with pro's and con's to it). |
Sourdough Muffins
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
93
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not enough players to justify this yet but...
I would like to see Squad only game modes where you are required to be in a group. Conversely I would also like to see game modes where grouping up isn't allowed. I think the groupless game modes would provide a bit more balance for newer players. |
Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
430
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Take each player's (or squad's) monthly win to loss ratio and use an algorithm to place them on teams. Keep both teams average monthly win to loss ratio about the same. And try to match high ratio squads against other high ratio squads. I think it's about as simple and elegant as possible and the monthly reset on stats keeps the data current.
FW lvl10 reward
Mobile Redlines
Default FWRace
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LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
90
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
SP is the best way to tier it. Its the only consistent variable that indicates experience;
Tier 1: 0-10mil SP Tier 2: 10-25mil SP Tier 3: 25mil+
Allow uptiering of 1 level, but not downtiering. So a T1 could go to T2, a T2 could go to T3. But a T1 could not go to T3.
To counter with possible player reductions, Players in the T1 range should get free Active Boosters. That way the more advanced/skilled players will fly through T1 into T2 and will then get access to T3 games.
To increase the more calm, learning environment for the T1 players, squads should be reduced to 2 players for T1 games. 6 mans squads however, would be allowed in T2 and T3 games. Vehicle limits should also be implemented for T1. Only Rail Tanks, no Blaster tanks, ect.
The payout. The lowest payouts would be in T1 games and the highest ones would be in T3 games. This would encourage players to try to get better to get access to more lucrative games. A higher payout in T3 would also enable the veteran players to more readily afford expensive equipment, so T3 games would always be intense games with proto teams.
As well, T1 players would not be able to play in PC games or FW games. T2 could play FW but not PC, and T3 would have access to all game types. Such a restriction would discourage alt accounts, and would serve as a way to renew interest in these other gamemodes; (ex: I cant wait to get to T2 and try FW!)
It took me about 6 months to get to about 10mil SP. It will probably take me another 8 or 9 to get to 25mil SP. So the tiers seem big, but if you look at it in the perspective of a game that could potentailly last 5-6 years, its not that long. It would take just under a year for a new player to go from |
Deltahawk Durango
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
194
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
we either need a pc release or a big influx of players in the new build to make it work... but i think 10 million SP would be the right number to split em...
kdr won't work cuz of snipers, tankers, and logis...
wp won't work cuz of passive sp...
and gear won't work cuz i will kill you with core skills, suit bonuses, and level 5 profiency...
I don't believe in an eye for an eye...
I believe in two eyes for an eye!
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Cee Zet
Phantom Universe Task Force Die Fremdenlegion
8
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
I linke the idea oft the current SP Tier based system. If i kill a endboss linke proto, it feels gold. But i also think, there should be some Kind oft Changes. What if you earn more ISK and SP while wearing an militia or std. Dropsuit? that would be good for New players, and vets would try To use them, that could make it easier. Also the stompers could stomp but Art high er cost.
Write something More later, damd mobile... |
al nize mk2
DUST University Ivy League
73
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
I posted something about this a few days ago but seeing as you asked I'll go for it again...
*The Academy system and Corp system should both be changed. *Academy should last a bit longer. Up until a certain amount of SP is reached. *Graduates are ranked alongside their SP peers by WP gain or KDR or whatever CCP thinks best. *All Corps are Player Corps and are required to take on Graduates. *The statistically worst Corps have first pick of the statistically best Graduates. Like the US Football draft. *From that point it's the Corps job to get the Graduates used to life in DUST 514. *Graduates can apply to join another Corp if they want and Corps can apply to transfer a Graduate but in both cases they have to pay an ISK fee to do so. The fee is based on the Graduates performance. Top notch Merc costs top notch money.
Weird and complicated but could provide a level playing field in no time - and help build a Star System for Mercs - and the notion of Merc Transfers excites me.
GÇ£All that I know most surely about morality and obligations I owe to football.GÇ¥
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
1400
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Posted - 2014.04.11 17:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Several points here: 1. We need an optional 2nd tier academy mode for players under around 5 mill SP. This is critical, but I consider this separate from the matchmaking topic.
2. We don't need tiers by gear or SP (other than point 1) this fractures the player base and will result in crazy wait times, or would require removing game modes to make work.
3. Because the number of players is low, the most important aspect to focus on is making team A and team B have relatively equal power. Too often I see two full squads from good corps on one side, and randoms on the other. I always wonder how much differently the match would have gone if those squads were fighting against each other instead of being on the same team. This won't fix all of the problems, but getting this part right should help a lot and at least make matches less one-sided.
4. The big picture solution is to give each player a "Matchmaking Quotient." This is a number between 0.0 and 1.0 designed to represent how talented you are as a player. The number is invisible to us, but CCP's servers use it to make good matches. It factors in SP, average WPs per match, weighted K/D (the better the player is that you kill, the more that kill is weighted), ISK efficiency, average rank at the end of a match, win/loss, etc. There should be a strong bias for average rank (in an ideal matchmaking system most players should be in the top half 50% of the time and the bottom half the other 50% of the time--that means it's working).
There can also be penalties built in for pub stomping. If your final WP tally exceeds the median WP from your team by some percent (say 400%) then you will get a boost to your matchmaking quotient (forcing you to play harder opponents in the future). Likewise, if you do poorly your Quotient will drop and you'll be matched with easier players. Eventually you will hit an equilibrium and your quotient should be a reasonably good barometer for how good you are at DUST. If we had a stat like this, coding the matchmaker itself should be pretty easy, as there are widely published algorithms for this sort of thing.
I do want to stress though that focusing on getting team A and team B to be as even as possible should be the first priority, along with getting an academy mode in place to help NPE.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
153
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Posted - 2014.04.11 19:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think one of the most important factor of any mercenary is: MONEY. I would like ISK to be a factor in matchmaking and a while ago I made a extensive thread about this in the feedback section (I.e. Use the wallet balance as a factor in matchmaking). However, that idea turned out to have many many flaws, as there were too many ways to game the system.
With that said, I have been thinking further, and there IS a way to make ISK count, but it requires some radical changes to the way fitting works. So, here it goes:
1) Each fit (suite + modules) is regarded as separate entities. This means if two suites share module type and you die in one of the fits, only that one is reduced in number. 2) The fits are separated from your inventory stock. To "make" these fits, you load the type of module (not the amount), and would "restock" the entire fit from your inventory. 3) You select which fits and the amount you bring to battle (I.e you don't magically bring your entire inventory across the galaxy). 4) You can only bring X amount of clones to a battle (X number of a specific fit = X clones), but you totally unrestricted in how many fits you bring as long as total amount are below or equal to the limit.
This idea means that each merc will bring X amount of "ISK" into the fight, and a team will have a combined ISK value. Let say a queue sync brings 2 full proto squads into the match. If you try and match them with another team of equal "value", they will be matched against another full proto team, because basic and advanced cost less. If there are only 6 (one squad) full proto, and the rest militia in one team, they can go up against a mix of different variations, for example a full advanced team.
Team value = enemy team value (roughly)
Now, I don't say this should be the ONLY factor in matchmaking, only that this system applies "gear" matching, without being bound to a specific tier. This system "could potentially" also solve a lot of the problems with the future market (as was discussed in another thread), as well as make it easier to incorporate a future corp hangar were everybody could restock from a common pool.
But as I said, it is a quite radical change...
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Eko Sol
Strange Playings
154
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 19:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Minor Treat wrote:I want to get as much feedback and Idea's as possible before I make a actual post on Feedback and Ideas to deliver to the Devs.
Please keep in mind that scaling according to Skill points or gear alone really won't work without it over-complicating the game. Why?
Skill points are accured over time so anyone who has more than 1 million skills points will always be 1 million skill points ahead of the player unless he purchases boosters (if both players play the exact amount of time). Now there are more variables in place than simply time spent playing but we'll keep it simple for now as the end result will mostly remain the same as the early players will in most scenario's have more skill points.
Gear is not a reasonable means to balance matchmaking systems because players could initially change into prototype gear during combat anytime you wish given how you can create fits in the field. So essentially a player could play militia and than create a fit before spawning with full prototype gear.
So why is matchmaking balancing important for Dust 514?
Well Dust is a harsh place in the universe of New Eden but New players will find this as a difficult wall to overcome. Many Vets can agree the game was at its funnest when everyone was struggling to compete in equal terms and than when you see one prototype players everyone either focus on him immediately or flee to survive.
Competition is healthy as history has taught us, its was pushes us to become more competitive and strive for greatness, but if Competition is unattainable for new players or if Vets have no new competition to face (since new players serve as no threat to them) Dust will struggle to increase its player base.
Now should that mean Vets must handicap themselves to fit the needs of the New players... No... So I want people to give me Only constructive Idea's to filter into a single post to CCP about matchmaking so new players and Vets have a means to grow together. We all want to make this game achieve its goal, so post a idea.
(Note If you have a constructive argument why Gear and Skill points are a good matchmaking system leave a post with a detail explaination how you would balance with pro's and con's to it).
I happen to agree with the "not enough players" reason for why this is near pointless. That being said, there should be modes with a gear cap. Ambush - Basic, Ambush - Adv, Ambush - Proto, Etc....
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R F Gyro
Clones 4u
1265
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Posted - 2014.04.11 19:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
The problem is that effective matchmaking requires a sufficiently large pool of players. Right now, each game mode splits that pool. Each regional server splits the pool further. Most suggestions I've seen effectively introduce new game modes, splitting it further still.
The solution? Contact matching.
CCP need to get rid of the current system that requires players to pre-select mutually exclusive options. Contract matching allows players to select all the game variants they are willing to play, simultaneously, and then it creates matches to satisfy as many of those selections as possible.
I'd then add reduced payouts (based on the sec status of the system the fight is in) and allow people to play at the highest level they are comfortable at.
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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deezy dabest
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
322
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 19:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think matchmaking is just fine if we had more players.
Source:
Ask anyone that played during the MCC how matches felt. |
Eko Sol
Strange Playings
154
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 19:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:The problem is that effective matchmaking requires a sufficiently large pool of players. Right now, each game mode splits that pool. Each regional server splits the pool further. Most suggestions I've seen effectively introduce new game modes, splitting it further still. The solution? Contact matching. CCP need to get rid of the current system that requires players to pre-select mutually exclusive options. Contract matching allows players to select all the game variants they are willing to play, simultaneously, and then it creates matches to satisfy as many of those selections as possible. I'd then add reduced payouts (based on the sec status of the system the fight is in) and allow people to play at the highest level they are comfortable at.
Actually, this brings up a good point. How about get rid of Skirmish and Only have Dom and Ambush and then the effective gear modes. In addition, Publics will not allow you to select which is the preferred. You can only select the gear cap you want. |
deezy dabest
CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY
322
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 19:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:The problem is that effective matchmaking requires a sufficiently large pool of players. Right now, each game mode splits that pool. Each regional server splits the pool further. Most suggestions I've seen effectively introduce new game modes, splitting it further still. The solution? Contact matching. CCP need to get rid of the current system that requires players to pre-select mutually exclusive options. Contract matching allows players to select all the game variants they are willing to play, simultaneously, and then it creates matches to satisfy as many of those selections as possible. I'd then add reduced payouts (based on the sec status of the system the fight is in) and allow people to play at the highest level they are comfortable at.
The current system is already essentially a voting system.
Example: 32 randoms searching for battle.
16 have selected skirmish and domination 16 have selected ambush and domination
A new domination match is created thanks to 32 votes being cast for domination and the match begins.
When you select a single mode you are potentially casting the deciding vote for another group of people.
While player count is a huge issue there is also the issue of diversity in the player base or the lack of it. With new player retention so low there are few players moving up to novice players, which is why you see newbies so quickly thrown in with 10-15 million SP players or above and in turn stomped out of the game. |
A'Real Fury
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
630
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 20:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
A simple equation for matchmaking would be wp x kdr over time.
This would be a simple means of grouping people together on a relatively equal footing. Over time starts at match 1 and continues to recalculate your score over your clones career.
However, the equation should change slightly by adding 5% to you score for every 100 wp you score above 750 wp in a single match. This way skilled logi's will not be stuck in lower skilled battles due to poor kdr. |
Cenex Langly
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
712
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Posted - 2014.04.11 20:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
I would consider 2 methods, solo queuing and squad queuing. Solo queuing would create matches with all other solo players and squad queuing would be slightly more in depth.
Taking into consideration the number of skill points of each player in the squad and assign some point system for that. The more SP each player has the more points the squad is worth. Then take into consideration the KDR of each player and the higher the kdr the more points signed. Then create matches with different range of points.
A squad worth, for example, 20 points would be in the 1-25 category, this would be noob squads. Then a higher category of 26-50 points would play other squads of a higher caliber and sp on with 51-75, etc.
Let guys with 4.0+ kdr, 40mil sp proto wearing guys play each other and let those other groups of players that don't care to play against those guys play against people who won't crush them but give them a fair fight. Otherwise getting owned gets old really quick.
Newb
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Minor Treat
RisingSuns Dark Taboo
211
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Posted - 2014.04.14 21:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Good feeback, Keep them coming. Bumping for more feedback. |
Minor Treat
RisingSuns Dark Taboo
211
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 21:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Several points here: 1. We need an optional 2nd tier academy mode for players under around 5 mill SP. This is critical, but I consider this separate from the matchmaking topic.
2. We don't need tiers by gear or SP (other than point 1) this fractures the player base and will result in crazy wait times, or would require removing game modes to make work.
3. Because the number of players is low, the most important aspect to focus on is making team A and team B have relatively equal power. Too often I see two full squads from good corps on one side, and randoms on the other. I always wonder how much differently the match would have gone if those squads were fighting against each other instead of being on the same team. This won't fix all of the problems, but getting this part right should help a lot and at least make matches less one-sided.
4. The big picture solution is to give each player a "Matchmaking Quotient." This is a number between 0.0 and 1.0 designed to represent how talented you are as a player. The number is invisible to us, but CCP's servers use it to make good matches. It factors in SP, average WPs per match, weighted K/D (the better the player is that you kill, the more that kill is weighted), ISK efficiency, average rank at the end of a match, win/loss, etc. There should be a strong bias for average rank (in an ideal matchmaking system most players should be in the top half 50% of the time and the bottom half the other 50% of the time--that means it's working).
There can also be penalties built in for pub stomping. If your final WP tally exceeds the median WP from your team by some percent (say 400%) then you will get a boost to your matchmaking quotient (forcing you to play harder opponents in the future). Likewise, if you do poorly your Quotient will drop and you'll be matched with easier players. Eventually you will hit an equilibrium and your quotient should be a reasonably good barometer for how good you are at DUST. If we had a stat like this, coding the matchmaker itself should be pretty easy, as there are widely published algorithms for this sort of thing.
I do want to stress though that focusing on getting team A and team B to be as even as possible should be the first priority, along with getting an academy mode in place to help NPE. I Really like this idea. |
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