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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1649
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:The thing is, we shouldn't FORCE people not to run brick-tanked, but as it stands a galscout can brick tank and still be faster than an Assault, with a lower scan profile and a cloa, whole lot of positives, no negative.
But that's the thing- the super-tanky-scout issue is really limited to just the Gal scout. You would think CCP would have learned that giving 3 hp/s intrinsic rep + 4 low slots is going to be an imbalanced armor tanker after the logi fiasco, but no.
My shield-bricked Ck.0 Cal scout (4x comp shield ex, 2x enh range amp) is 440/80- tanky on the scout scale, but still much less total HP than Cal Assaults, less EHP than the armor of some MLT Gal Mediums, and 5 less EHP than a all-basic-module tanked G-1 gal scout. Don't lump me in and punish me with the armor brickers.
Nerdier than thou
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1649
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:The thing is, we shouldn't FORCE people not to run brick-tanked, but as it stands a galscout can brick tank and still be faster than an Assault, with a lower scan profile and a cloa, whole lot of positives, no negative. But that's the thing- the super-tanky-scout issue is really limited to just the Gal scout. You would think CCP would have learned that giving 3 hp/s intrinsic rep + 4 low slots is going to be an imbalanced armor tanker after the logi fiasco, but no. My shield-bricked Ck.0 Cal scout (4x comp shield ex, 2x enh range amp) is 440/80- tanky on the scout scale, but still much less total HP than Cal Assaults, less EHP than the armor of some MLT Gal Mediums, and 5 less EHP than a all-basic-module tanked G-1 gal scout. Don't lump me in and punish me with the armor brickers. Wait, what about Amarr scouts? Also, every Caldari scout ive seen tanks shield and throws a plate or two on their lows, that brigs them up to 440/160-240. There are maybe 2 guys I know who don't brick tank scouts.
No intrinsic reps makes the Amarr a much less scary armor tanker. Either you can whittle them down due to 0 regen and low speed, or they automatically have less EHP than the Gal scout- they're simply blatantly worse armor tankers than the Gal scout. It really comes down to 5 effective lows (Amarr: 4 lows, 1 free cardiac reg) vs 7 effective lows (Gal: 4 lows, 3hp/s, free complex damp, free basic range amp). The Amarr vs Gal scout balancing is just an absolute joke.
Nerdier than thou
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1649
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:The thing is, we shouldn't FORCE people not to run brick-tanked, but as it stands a galscout can brick tank and still be faster than an Assault, with a lower scan profile and a cloa, whole lot of positives, no negative. But that's the thing- the super-tanky-scout issue is really limited to just the Gal scout. You would think CCP would have learned that giving 3 hp/s intrinsic rep + 4 low slots is going to be an imbalanced armor tanker after the logi fiasco, but no. My shield-bricked Ck.0 Cal scout (4x comp shield ex, 2x enh range amp) is 440/80- tanky on the scout scale, but still much less total HP than Cal Assaults, less EHP than the armor of some MLT Gal Mediums, and 5 less EHP than a all-basic-module tanked G-1 gal scout. Don't lump me in and punish me with the armor brickers. Wait, what about Amarr scouts? Also, every Caldari scout ive seen tanks shield and throws a plate or two on their lows, that brigs them up to 440/160-240. There are maybe 2 guys I know who don't brick tank scouts. No intrinsic reps makes the Amarr a much less scary armor tanker. Either you can whittle them down due to 0 regen and low speed, or they automatically have less EHP than the Gal scout- they're simply blatantly worse armor tankers than the Gal scout. It could be made up slightly with a complex reactive to be fair, not to mention the built in stamina bonus lets them run further and recover faster.
See my edit on effective slot counts. Anything Amarr can do, Gal can do better. Reposted for your convenience:
It really comes down to 5 effective lows (Amarr: 4 lows, 1 free cardiac reg) vs 7 effective lows (Gal: 4 lows, 3hp/s, free complex damp, free basic range amp).
Nerdier than thou
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1649
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Same slot layout + high base armor, don't see how the amarr has a lower ceiling.
Regen. No sane scout rolls with 0 regen on their primary tank. The Gal gets a free enhanced repper, the Amarr gets none, and therefore has to sacrifice a low slot to repair.
Nerdier than thou
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1650
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:@Awry, I agree in the bricked tank scout category that the Amarr scout got boned, and also that he should have something that sets him apart from the GalScout(maybe a bonus extenders or another scout related module)
But the Gal Scout needs the built in reps to counter it's low shield regain ability. In theory, it works, till you start stacking plates.
Then you get the same problem Logis had, but to say that any other scout cant abuse plates and extenders is just singling out the GalScout. Plates are a problem and they need to be balanced just for the simple fact that every suit throws a few plates on their lows with no repercussions.
I agree that plate balancing is the real problem. IMO complex plates should stay as they are, and basic/enhanced plates should follow the same scaling as shield extenders. 10 CPU and 1 PG should not = over 90 EHP.
Nerdier than thou
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1651
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:Same slot layout + high base armor, don't see how the amarr has a lower ceiling. Regen. No sane scout rolls with 0 regen on their primary tank. The Gal gets a free enhanced repper, the Amarr gets none, and therefore has to sacrifice a low slot to repair. 3 hp/s for 500-700armor is just as useful as 0 regen, it's not going to keep you alive. It's a far simpler affair after taking considerable damage to lay down a rep hive or swap suits at a nearby supply depot than wading around in four plates with 3hp/s passive.
I disagree completely. No, it won't heal you back up to max HP, but it's much more beneficial than the Amarr's +30 base HP. If the Gal scout can survive with damaged armor for literally 10 seconds, the built-in repper has provided more EHP than the Amarr's "superior brick tank".
Nerdier than thou
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1654
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Posted - 2014.04.06 18:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:Same slot layout + high base armor, don't see how the amarr has a lower ceiling. Regen. No sane scout rolls with 0 regen on their primary tank. The Gal gets a free enhanced repper, the Amarr gets none, and therefore has to sacrifice a low slot to repair. 3 hp/s for 500-700armor is just as useful as 0 regen, it's not going to keep you alive. It's a far simpler affair after taking considerable damage to lay down a rep hive or swap suits at a nearby supply depot than wading around in four plates with 3hp/s passive. I disagree completely. No, it won't heal you back up to max HP, but it's much more beneficial than the Amarr's +30 base HP. If the Gal scout can survive with damaged armor for literally 10 seconds, the built-in repper has provided more EHP than the Amarr's "superior brick tank". Let me stop you right there, my original comment is highlighting that the fallacy that the gal hp ceiling(i.e. absolute limit, since people are using that word and seem to not know what it means in that context) is higher than the amarr. Black and white, it simply isn't true and the amarr scout does not have to "sacrifice" a slot. I'm not arguing the advantages of the individual bonuses.
Okay, sure, but high ceiling with no regen is a terrible fit for a class that rarely if ever has rep tool support. In terms of practical combat fittings, the Gal can stack more buffer. The absolute ceiling isn't particularly meaningful.
Nerdier than thou
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
1658
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Awry Barux wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:
Let me stop you right there, my original comment is highlighting that the fallacy that the gal hp ceiling(i.e. absolute limit, since people are using that word and seem to not know what it means in that context) is higher than the amarr. Black and white, it simply isn't true and the amarr scout does not have to "sacrifice" a slot. I'm not arguing the advantages of the individual bonuses.
Okay, sure, but high ceiling with no regen is a terrible fit for a class that rarely if ever has rep tool support. In terms of practical combat fittings, the Gal can stack more buffer. The absolute ceiling isn't particularly meaningful. Cool, then explain to me how practical it is to have only 3hp/s is after losing 40-90% of 700 armor for a class with no logi support. - is it more practical than finding a logi? - is it more practical than running to a supply depot? - is it more practical than using a rep hive?
Yes, to all three. Friendly logis may be nowhere near you, or on the other side of the enemy formation. Supply depots are few and far between, and may be destroyed by tanks. Rep hives limit your fittings (no uplinks, no REs) and limit your repair ability to fixed locations, as well as broadcasting your position to the enemy. They're great to bring in addition to intrinsic reps, but I wouldn't want to rely on them entirely.
My point isn't that 3hp/s is all you need for repair, but when measured against a static 30 HP boost, which is the other option for armor-tanking scouts with the exact same slot layout, 3hp/s just clearly, clearly better.
Imagine this: you push to one of the outside points in Skirmish match, killing 1-2 defenders and taking 300 armor damage in the process. You hack the CRU and the point, then sprint back to the city to catch reds from behind, or sit and wait for people to attack your newly-capped point. You have at least 30 seconds between engagements, maybe as much as 60-100 if you choose to camp the point. In that time, you regain at least 90 HP (equivalent to a basic plate), possibly much more.
Nerdier than thou
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