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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
745
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Posted - 2014.04.05 15:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Agreed with you to a certain extent on most of your points there. Though I have a few different thoughts and ideas to add. Going to start with railguns.
Railguns When we consider railguns and balance, what factors are taken into account? First, what are we balancing.
Tank vs Tank interactions: How one tank interacts with another tank. By shooting each other of course. But what are we looking for within those interactions. I personally look for longer, more engaging combat. The time to kill between tanks is far too short. And I feel the railgun is the main culprit in this.
Range and Damage But when we look at the railgun, I think the biggest balancing factors to look at first are Range and Damage. If it has a huge range, and huge alpha, I see that as unbalanced. Though I do understand that you can balance this out by taking other factors into account, spool up time, RoF, even ammo capacity.
And as you mentioned, the damage number on the railgun is far too high atm. It simply alpha's everything in it's sights in comparison to the other turret types. So first things first,
Slash railgun damage by a third
Reduce damage mods from 30% to 15%
Range IS a defense But here's my idea on balancing this particular turret, considering what range means for a tank.
Long range(500M +) = Support weapon Short range(300M -) = Assault weapon
So let's consider the turret before the range nerf. 600M could hit nearly the whole field from extreme range. With a high alpha too boot. Is it just me, or does it seem inherently wrong to 2 or 3 shot a tank from 600M in 3 or 4 seconds. For the sake of balance, I say that a long range weapon, like the railgun, work as a support weapon when the range is 600M. Why, because 600M is an AWESOME defense that people never consider!
A long range tank, with a low alpha could sit in the safety of the mountains, raining support fire for other tankers on the field. They would be more like the bee, stinging their opponents over and over, forcing them to reconsider their course and actions. Range IS your best defense. The problem I see, not enough importance is placed on range when balance is considered.
Range is an incredible defense. And by severely cutting damage on a long range weapon, you emphasise the use of that range. IE, don't try brawlin with it. I know people would cry foul, "but it's just like a sniper rifle". Wrong, Tanks are not sniper rifles. I could go on all day about the difference between a tank, and infantry suit.
Something else to consider, Tanks are not finished. I know you know this Harpyja, so I'm going to mention railgun variants.
High alpha Long range:
People want a High alpha on a railgun, sure. But if you want that 600M range, it still needs to be considered a support weapon. I imagine it could hit with a lot of power on that first shot, but would need to cooldown between each shot. Or what I mean, have such a low RoF, that the time between shots means the tank they are shooting at has plenty of time to move and evade. Not to mention the importance placed on landing shots in succession. Again, place an emphasis on using the range!
Low alpha Long range:
This one would fire shots off very fast, with a high heat threshold, say like 15 shots. At the same time though, it would do very low damage, say like 250 a shot. It like I mentioned above, it would be more like a bee sting, but get enough of those bees together and it can kill. Meaning landing shots in succession are key to killing with it, placing an emphasis on having a little skill when using one (or anything for that matter!)
Anyways, I'm down for some discussion on this. I have idea's on blaster and missiles too, but I got a lot here already. No need to overload.
Good read fella!
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
745
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Posted - 2014.04.05 15:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:CLONE117 wrote:u must god awful hate losing your tank to blaster turrets. I just hate anything that's good at everything. Blaster turret wants to be good at AI? Then it should be the worst for AV. Simple as that. Trade-offs. WarMachine88 wrote:Blasters are fine, u reduce damage then loses its ability to fight other tanks. SO this guy wants a blaster tank to have no defense against any other tank. Missiles need a damage nerf no turret should instantly kill a tank and Rails need a reduce RoF. And on top of this Rails need to switch to Lvl 5 and Missles to Lvl 3. So, you want a tank that's not only best at killing infantry, but can also handle itself against other tanks? Dude, it's all about trade-offs. Blaster tank gains advantage at killing infantry, it should then lose any advantages against other tanks. Also, did I not mention that a blaster tank should be able to defeat a rail tank in CQC? I think you're also forgetting that missiles must reload right after killing a tank, in addition to having the longest reload time of the turrets. It's just the same as the scrambler rifle: massive DPS against one person, low DPS against multiple targets. Plus, actually using your intelligence to ambush should be rewarded instead of bum-rushing with a railgun. Missiles should stay at level 5; apparently they require too much intelligence for people to use properly and the skill levels will accurately reflect the required intelligence level
Balance
To be good in one area, you must sacrifice in another. A blaster sacrifices nothing for it's potent AI abilities considering the changes. They don't always get this though Harpy.
They like running OP death machines from hell!
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
761
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Posted - 2014.04.07 20:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
tween tween wrote:Not to be a ****, but get better at tanking. I can takeout railgun tanks with my blaster tank easily, if they bring out **** tanks. On the other hand, I rarely loose my sicas unless they use ion cannon and surprise me.
Who are you?
And any validity you had to begin with is lost now.
You drive sica's
You are one of those NUBS that knows nothing about tanking!
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
770
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Posted - 2014.04.08 20:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I like the 300m Rail Turret range. It is still sufficient to give an advantage over Blasters, but it gets the Rail Tanks out of the Red line. I have been having a lot of fun with mine, now that I am getting the hang of it. Trying to sneak up on and out maneuver enemy tanks is a lot more fun than sniping from the Red Line.
For the power, I agree. 300M is one of the few (only) tank changes I agree with, and even suggested that very thing not long ago. I always brawled with the railgun, brawling being anything within 300M.
Addressing Harps, I still don't think damage falloff is a good way to go about it when the railgun is concerned. I'm all for a variety of different types of railguns, and the way you describe it makes me think of only the one type. We NEED variations like we had before, and I imagine that is what CCP has in mind for the future (I hope).
I believe that addressing the main issue, range and power, is the way to go about it. High range, low power. As we begin lowering the range, we increase the power to reflect it's place on the battlefield.
In this way a long range railgun could still try to CQC, but is actually hampered by the damage in comparison to a lower range railgun. I think this leaves a lot of possibility's open, whereas damage falloff limits our options for the future, not to mention it makes a lot less work on the coders adding a new dynamic to railguns and developers trying to balance around it.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
771
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Posted - 2014.04.08 23:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Harpyja wrote: My only concern about dropping the power with an increase on range is that it will become less effective at it's intended role. For example, let's say we still had the 600m range railgun, but at proto level it only did 900 damage per shot to balance out its range. But now it can't kill anything because it has too little power balancing out its range, and bumping up its power will make it unbalanced.
I find this very much "In the box" thinking. No offense fella, but I don't like to beat around the bush. It's ALWAYS about the kill to so many people here. If I didn't know any better, I would say this is another COD game, and not the team focused game that it is. Why is it always so necessary to kill? (Now it's less necessary as you gather WP from simply damaging them).
Let's recall pre 1.7. It feels like it was so long ago and I hardly remember a lot of the gear and fits. It was a different world back then, one where it sucked to be the tanker. Tankers were the kid in the corner with the dunce hat on, while all the other kids laughed and played. And they would always poke at you, "shut up tanker, AV is fine, you just suck". Thanks, that helps a lot. (not to mention the AV that actually blame tankers for the whole predicament in the first place, last I checked NOBODY was expecting THIS.)
Anyways, back then the compressed was the best at killing tanks. Well, that's what everyone said at least. Best being they want something that kills incredibly quick, faster than all other turrets. To me that means wanting something OP and skilless. Me, I don't play for the kills. I play for the big WIN banner at the end of the match. This doesn't always require killing to accomplish.
I used the Pro Standard ones (or whatever it was called), specifically the gomorra(I'm terrible at spelling if you notice). Aur was the way to go with turrets back then. These had considerably less damage, but better spool time, and a much lower heat cost per shot. This meant it could fire off more shots in a given length of time than the compressed before overheating.
Man did I love this railgun. A active heatsink was always a must whenever I fit railguns. But I also used a few fits that used low slot heatsinks in place of damage mods. Meaning I could fire off 11+ shots before overheating. No, I couldn't outright kill another tank like you could with a compressed. But I certainly gave them pause, and back then, accuracy was a big thing with railguns. And I got REAL gud at that ****. When you gotta land 10+ shots in succession with a railgun, accuracy matters.
But often times, killing them wasn't always necessary. I saw my railgun as a suppression tool. I subdue and suppress my enemy, giving him pause in all his actions, dictating his every move with each shot I made. The first few they always thought, ok cool I can tank this dude out, then they notice. I didn't stop firing when they expected me to. It just keeps going, and goin and goin.
Not to say I didn't kill tanks with it, because I killed plenty. I just took a different approach to using. And I always kept in mind, sometimes simply pushing a tank back, away from the main engagement, was totally fine. Why, because I'm 600M away untouchable by them unless they pull out a rail themselves. In which case, is still cool because I'm keeping at least that one player from slaughtering thousands of blue dots (might be exaggerating a little).
All about that team play, I play for the win. Yeah sometimes I might be the only one actually attempting to win sometimes and we still lose despite my efforts. But I like a challenge. If I wanted easy mode, I'd switch over to Skyrim, or Pokemon for that matter.
Harpyja wrote: You can then have variants that lower the falloff rate in exchange for less damage per shot or increasing the falloff rate in exchange for greater damage per shot.
That's just how I view the railguns, where their purpose is at being an effective ranged weapon.
Totally agree "The railgun needs that power at range to do its job. But it shouldn't have that power at just about any range."
I just don't see damage fall off as a "fix" to railguns. I view it as a balancing factor, another variable that would need to be balanced in relation to the variables present already. We have the variables there to do it, is what I'm saying.
But as a balancing factor, I'm not saying it's something that shouldn't be added in. As it would add some new dynamics and depth to turret and variety. But not exactly a fix, but something that would need to be itself balanced.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
773
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Posted - 2014.04.09 00:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Just nerf the dam damage mods already. They should have been nerfed when the Hardeners were nerfed.
True dat
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad.
774
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
tween tween wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:tween tween wrote:Not to be a ****, but get better at tanking. I can takeout railgun tanks with my blaster tank easily, if they bring out **** tanks. On the other hand, I rarely loose my sicas unless they use ion cannon and surprise me. Who are you? And any validity you had to begin with is lost now. You drive sica's You are one of those NUBS that knows nothing about tanking! Who am I? I'm tween. Yes, because I like kiling madrugars with Sica's. That being said, I have both gunnlogi's and madrugars fitted with plasma cannons, when needed. Why slag me off, when you're in DDD. When I end up having a squad of DDD on my team in domination, it usually Means I already lost that match unless you got another corp or individuals like me to carry you. I'm far from the best tankers left on this game, but I'm fairly decent and I'm pretty sure I'm a better tanker than you.
HAHA, at that last line. That IS funny.
All I got's for you fella, enjoy it while it lasts. ANYONE can be a "GUD" tanker when all you gotta do is 2 or 3 shot something. You really consider that skillful?
And plasma cannons, you sure you tank?
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
924
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Posted - 2014.05.12 12:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dalton Smithe wrote:Dunce Masterson wrote:since the blaster turret is a single barrel weapon it should have kick and dispersion like the Assault blaster without any skills reducing it so short controlled burst would be necessary to engage infantry while blaster tanks can just spray on tanks.
having ammunition cost ISK is not something we want in the game unless we are paying for different types but not per shot.
Until the blaster has better DPS then the rail the rail is still OP. The rail is overpowered in certain situations, I'll agree to that, but it has to be that way(for now) to counter certain fits in the game. Everything in Eve costs money, the same should hold true in dust, we are in the same universe. The thing is, most people who play console shooters aren't used to having to buy things every time they want to run with it. More often than not I hear the argument that Dust isn't Eve, and they are right, but here is the thing, we all live on earth, and if you drive a car, you need to put gas in that car, regardless of where you live, you have to BUY gas. Someone in England is going to pay more per gallon than someone in United States(yes I know they buy per liter in England). They still have to pay for gas regardless of where they live. They should increase the rail gun range to pre nerf stats, lower the damage(decreasing it further for infantry) and rails would become the snipers they were supposed to be. Blasters should have their damage increased(while making it do significantly less against infantry) Either that or implement ammunition cost, whichever would be easier. Watch how it works(or doesn't) and go from there.
Just how overpowered do you think the rail is (or isn't)?
Tanking isn't expensive already? It is.
Yes dust isn't EVE. Things work differently with gravity, atmosphere, ect. As opposed to the vacuum of space. And you make it seem like rails are deadly against infantry, so damage must be reduced against them. Umm, how does any of this make sense?
--20mil + into tanking, with nearly a year of experience.--
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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