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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.03 21:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just a thought.
The death of a proto suit costs your team 3 clones
Advanced costs 2
Basic and mlt cost 1
STD LAV and DS cost 1
HAV and ADS cost 5
You could also only give the winning team isk, kinda like FW. And when you attack another district the same rules apply. No more suit costs, but the ingame economy ties directly to attacking and maintaining districts. I am sure you could come up with other places to make the isk matter too, like paying more isk to attack a district via ambush to represent spending more on stealth ops.
Btw this could be structured around your clones total meta rating for clarity.
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.05 04:28:00 -
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The isk we pay for suits has no direct influence on EVE. The only thing the price of our suits affects is how we deploy on the field and in what strength.
Since we all eat our losses and technically isk is generated whenever it is needed with no limit, our choices of suit use does not impact any universe, it's all made up and doesn't have any important meaning. Isk is an idea of limited resources that players have to expend, but since it only approximates that idea it falls short of real currency and supply and demand.
If suits were worth real in game substance, aka proto = 3 clones, then that has a real effect on Dust, in EVE, and has meaning to all players. This actual worth would resemble the kind of resources and time to get a prototype suit to the frontline and in to combat. It is not just a printed up value, if lower tier players have better teamwork than proto, then the districts will be harder to keep for less coordinated corporations, and wasting suits that cost more resources become evident.
You can tie in this fake currency still. (Are normal pubs just TDM? Or do they have some effect somewhere in EVE?) You can make FW cost isk to attack. You generate this isk in pubs like normal, then proceed to FW when you want to move resources in EVE and affect the universe. Just as before, the FW matters, but so does teamwork and actuall resources used. In current FW, isk loss means nothing to that battle. If a tank is blown up, there could be a limitless supply sent to that destination, yet no war is going to be able to have unlimited supply to any war front. Choices must be made in war, and isk prevents any meaningful choices. No reward is given to superior tactics either. If a poorly equipped squad punishes expensive ill performing $$$bros, their expertise is not rewarded. Under the clones cost clones scheme, an ambushed proto squad loses more than their position, but they cost their team more, the war front is more damaged from losing those assets.
This could be implemented in FW only, and normal suit costs could be used in pubs. To launch a FW match you could pay like 50k isk a person. This is non refundable, it represents you putting cones into a war somewhere. LP could still be provided, but FW would be better tied some kind of economy.
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.05 06:53:00 -
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Yea, it would have more impact then, but the issues I brought up will remain. And really, bringing more isk to Dust from EVE doesn't make any more sense in terms of meaningful loss for Dust battles. And then, Dust only becomes another mining source for EVE. It's not about how much isk is worth what from where, it's about making decisions that carry true weight. After all, the scheme I describe still utilizes isk for movement of player assets, but player's choices affect the way the battle is played out (instead of personal isk).
Basically, drop suits are not the same as space ships. Ground battles are not the same as space battles. Yet they are currently being treated the same in terms of isk.
Removing the isk from suits does not turn the game to CoD, death has a meaning. And the more higher tier gear you lose, the more resources are lost from your teams reserves. Better gear can be compensated for by buying a bigger "clone pack", but careless playing will always result in defeat. Currently, I just don't see the risk in any battle, more resources can always be called in, and with EVE giving resources to Dusters death in matches will only become more meaningless.
Your telling me losing a tank in a war is meaningless? Why is such a high tech piece of equipment, clearly more valuable than any clone, not considered a "real" loss in a match. No clones (resources) are expended by vehicle loss?! Is just doesn't make sense. How is it not calibrated to account for all loss from your side?
If anything, the structure now resembles CoD the most. All suits are equal resources, losing a proto is the same as losing a militia. When a well coordinated team plays, isk is nothing. We pull everything in FW. There is no disadvantage in losing the most expensive gear in New Eden, after all, an unlimited supply of isk is just around the corner in pubs...
Meaningful battles against equally matched teams for high stakes does not exist. And it is what we all want. We still need to make isk to fight wars, but competitive play can become a norm, especially in FW. I am sure EVE players want FW to be taken seriously, and I think this could help.
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:19:00 -
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote:The isk we pay for suits has no direct influence on EVE. The only thing the price of our suits affects is how we deploy on the field and in what strength.
Since we all eat our losses and technically isk is generated whenever it is needed with no limit, our choice of suit use does not impact any universe, it's all made up and doesn't have any important meaning. Isk is an idea of limited resources that players have to expend, but since it only approximates that idea it falls short of real currency and supply and demand.
If suits were worth real in game substance, aka proto = 3 clones, then that has a real effect on Dust, in EVE, and has meaning to all players. This actual worth would resemble the kind of resources and time to get a prototype suit to the frontline and in to combat. It is not just a printed up value, if lower tier players have better teamwork than proto, then the districts will be harder to keep for less coordinated corporations, and wasting suits that cost more resources becomes evident.
You can tie in this fake currency still. (Are normal pubs just TDM? Or do they have some effect somewhere in EVE?) You can make FW cost isk to attack. You generate this isk in pubs like normal, then proceed to FW when you want to move resources in EVE and affect the universe. Just as before, the FW matters, but so does teamwork and actuall resources used. In current FW, isk loss means nothing to that battle. If a tank is blown up, there could be a limitless supply sent to that destination, yet no war is going to be able to have unlimited supply to any war front. Choices must be made in war, and isk prevents any meaningful choices. No reward is given to superior tactics either. If a poorly equipped squad punishes expensive ill performing $$$bros, their expertise is not rewarded. Under the clones cost clones scheme, an ambushed proto squad loses more than their position, but they cost their team more, the war front is more damaged from losing those assets.
This could be implemented in FW only, and normal suit costs could be used in pubs. To launch a FW match you could pay like 50k isk a person. This is non refundable, it represents you putting clones into a war somewhere. LP could still be provided, but FW would then be better tied to some kind of economy.
It would be interesting if Dust players couldn't fund their own FW, but rather they had to be funded by EVE side corporations. It would be more interesting if you could select a type of deployment for your team, assuming q sync became a normal feature, a field commander would then choose an amount of clones to go into a FW with, that amount costs a certain amount of isk. The other team may or may not have the same amount of clones. I would depend on their funding and commanders choice. Obviously, a commander that is better might be able to be more efficient with less clones. Should battles like this go for longer, or would a timer be used?
Similar to PC but with EVE implications.
The OP has evolved since it was first made. Isk is still present, just used differently. The idea is to make loss a real thing, not arbitrary. The current spend whatever isk you want wherever you want is not part of the lore either. And saying people wouldn't care, they would just run proto till the whole team loses is not true either. Do people just sit and farm objectives and not shoot each other? No. They play to win, and if dying costs your team more at the proto level, then they wouldn't run it defiantly.
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:23:00 -
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TLDR (for now imagine this in FW only)
Suits have no cost.
Losing better gear in matches causes the clone ticker to deplete faster.
HAV loss is worth 5 clones
High meta loss is 3 clones
Low meta loss is 1 clone
You pay isk to attack or defend in FW. Maybe 50-100k a person.
Don't think of the clone ticker as clones. Instead think of it as your teams available resources. How much you can expend is determined by equipment and suit deployment. Pay more isk to attack/defend, increase your teams resource ticker.
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:27:00 -
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Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:We're mercenaries. We get paid. Our gear costs money. The better you do the more your paid. Win the round and your team gets more isk. I don't run proto because; firstly - its a bit of a douchebag thing to do in a public match. secondly - too many BS things can happen to make you loose it, no matter how good you are. Orbitals for example. thirdly - I fight well enough in advanced gear, I can loose a few and still make a profit so therefore comfortable keep doing it in every game. Your system would mean I could just say '**** the team' and run proto constantly and loose dozens and not bat an eyelid. I don't gain anything or loose anything so why should I care if the team wins the match or not. Right now, every kill, every revive, every guardian / triage is more money to my wallet. And I got a fat wallet
You would still get LP, and your revive and repping would save team resources, and you still have to pay to get to the battle. It's just when you get there, it will be more competitive, loss has definitive meaning for that battle, and FW should be taken seriously. If you are not there to win, what are you doing there?
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:38:00 -
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Leonid Tybalt wrote:Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote:The isk we pay for suits has no direct influence on EVE.. YET! The idea is that it will have a direct influence on EVE and vice versa once the market gets integrated. But Rome wasn't built in a day. The OP proposal would be stupid since it woule move further away from the vision ccp has for Dust than it already is.
Isk is still meaningless in any battle. No one is limited. EVER! In PC two fully proto'd sides duke it out. One usually has way more clones. There is nothing about that match that is affected by the economy. So basically it is just like any other game. And so are pubs. Your funds are at instant access at all times. If you could only use a limited amount of your isk in a battle then a true economy would be approximated. But there is no limit to what players can bring into a battle. It's like racing a car and being able to refuel your car instantly via teleport without having to slow down. Or never having to pit for repairs and maintenance. Economies take time to transition resources and are limited in the number of services rendered.
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:46:00 -
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Django Quik wrote:Isk costs are what implements the personal risk vs reward factor in this game. You think people would care in pubs if their death was worth 1 clone or 3 (something that makes absolutely no sense in terms of lore btw) ? They'd just be playing the game like any other Call of BattleZone with no thought about what they can actually afford to use/lose.
And one day there will be a fully functional economy (CCP Z is working on it right now) and a complete link to Eve and all this will matter, so it's best to get players used to it now instead of changing the entire game once now to facilitate this insane idea and then again to facilitate the move to a proper economy and then again for full Eve integration!
Afford to lose? When I play seriously (highly coordinated team), there is no limit to what gets blown up on our front. We just call in another one. 7 dropships down, whatever, bring it on. There should be a disadvantage for consuming more resources, but there isn't. If the economy as it stands as an idea only facilitates the unlimited supply of stuff to any battle anywhere, then it is not a true economy, but a way to provide players a cool down. If you lose so much, then you can't use it for a bit (unless you get donations). But where people don't use certain equipment, a plethora of isk develops and that cool down is removed. I could fly 24/7 and lose a ship every game and still have another in the garage. It just doesn't matter. How in economics does an unlimited supply make any coherent sense?
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Varjac Theobroma Montenegro
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:26:00 -
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Maken Tosch wrote:Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote:Django Quik wrote:Isk costs are what implements the personal risk vs reward factor in this game. You think people would care in pubs if their death was worth 1 clone or 3 (something that makes absolutely no sense in terms of lore btw) ? They'd just be playing the game like any other Call of BattleZone with no thought about what they can actually afford to use/lose.
And one day there will be a fully functional economy (CCP Z is working on it right now) and a complete link to Eve and all this will matter, so it's best to get players used to it now instead of changing the entire game once now to facilitate this insane idea and then again to facilitate the move to a proper economy and then again for full Eve integration! Afford to lose? When I play seriously (highly coordinated team), there is no limit to what gets blown up on our front. We just call in another one. 7 dropships down, whatever, bring it on. There should be a disadvantage for consuming more resources, but there isn't. If the economy as it stands as an idea only facilitates the unlimited supply of stuff to any battle anywhere, then it is not a true economy, but a way to provide players a cool down. If you lose so much, then you can't use it for a bit (unless you get donations). But where people don't use certain equipment, a plethora of isk develops and that cool down is removed. I could fly 24/7 and lose a ship every game and still have another in the garage. It just doesn't matter. How in economics does an unlimited supply make any coherent sense? War has always been decided by two things. Supplies and money. To amass an army you need supplies. To get supplies you need funds.
I have never played EVE, so I can not make a comparison of its economy. All I can do is reflect on Dust, and make note that since isk is limitless in supply, and you have access to it on demand anywhere in the game demand is skewed and does not represent a true variable for players to consider. Should the economy in Fust receive an overhaul, then maybe my point is invalid. However, as it stands, Dust is just another lobby shooter with a few bells and whistles and matches are static playgrounds where strategy is undermined.
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