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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2865
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
A couple of points before I get into it:
1) The two biggest problems with PC 1.0 are Passive ISK generation, and that Location Dose Not Matter. This proposal only addresses the first issue. I have addressed the location issue elsewhere.
2) This solution is intended to be a better stop-gap than what we have currently, to hold us over until more complex systems are implemented such as PVE and EVE/DUST manufacturing integration. It does rely on a DUST Player to Player market, but we are supposed to be getting that soon anyway.
The Premise:
1) There is an ISK per day cost to keeping clones alive. That cost starts to rise exponentially as you exceed the clone capacity of your district. To avoid paying the higher clone maintenance costs you must either sell or destroy your excess clones.
2) Clones are bought and sold on the open market. Genolution is out of the business. If you have more clones than you can afford, sell them for a price that people are willing to pay. If you donGÇÖt have clones (or enough clones) to attack a district, buy them on the market.
3) Clones must be transported to a station before they can be placed on the market. Transport is done in EVE and would be arranged through a type of currier contract. An orbital structure would be needed above each district, similar to a POCO, where clones could be picked up or dropped off.
Self Regulating System:
The income from districts would be based on clone sales on an open Player to Player market, so value would be dependent on supply and demand.
High Demand would lead to a high return on clone sales, but the demand would only be high when there are a lot of Planetary Conquest matches happening.
High Supply would lead to low returns on clone sales as differnt Corps try to undercut each other to sell to the few people who are buying. (They might not all sell, and some might even have to be destroyed.) High Supply will happen when there are not very many Planetary Conquest battles.
So, if there are a lot of PC matches, and a lot of clones are dying, then owning districts will be highly profitable.
If no one is fighting, then districts will not be profitable. However, if no one if fighting the cost of clones will drop to the point where it is very easy for new Corporations to get into Planetary Conquest.
Of course the most profit can be made when two other Corps are fighting each other and your Corp is selling clones to both sides. Welcome to New Eden. 
So, anyone see any obvious flaws in this proposal?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1871
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Posted - 2014.04.03 22:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds much like the clone system I proposed in other threads, some of which you responded to. 
Original Post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2013941#post2013941
Graphical Representation: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2018130#post2018130
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
1840
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Posted - 2014.04.03 22:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like the idea, there's more than a few parts of the game that will feel more balanced with an open market in play, and clones definitely could be a big part of that. (FacWar is the other glaring example where the player market will fix it's financial issues.)
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2865
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Posted - 2014.04.03 22:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yeah, I got the idea when reading your original post. I was thinking that your suggestion seemed a bit complex for quick implementation. Then it occurred to me we could simplify it greatly by just applying the idea to clones to start with.
I would like to see some of the other stuff you suggested, but they have more dependencies and could not be implemented until industry is developed further.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2867
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Posted - 2014.04.05 14:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
I added a link in the original post linking to my solution to making Location matter, based on the snippets of info we got regarding PC 2.0.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
12250
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Posted - 2014.04.10 20:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
I dislike the massive quantities of passive ISK generation, but I don't think this is the way to 'fix' the problem.
If you are essentially fined for owning clones and the only way to make a profit is to sell said clones to someone else then why bother with PC? Why buy clones from someone else when you get fined for owning them? If the reason to to attack a district, then that leads to you getting fined further for generating your own clones. So it's an ISK sink (and I use that term negatively, here) with zero reward in any way whatsoever?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
EUrobro
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2918
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Posted - 2014.04.11 15:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thank you Arkena Wyrnspire. You have pointed out some serious flaws in my original proposal. Let me see if I can address those.
Let us add the ability to sell clones to an NPC Corp for biomass. Have the proceeds from biomass sales set so that biomassing 80 clones will return enough ISK to pay for the clone maintenance of 450 clones at within capacity maintenance costs.
This would allow districts to be self sufficient, and Production Facilities could even produce a very small profit through biomassing, if the clones are not sold on the open market for large profits.
Clone maintenance costs should be quite low so that even with the exponential cost of exceeding the capacity of your district when saving up clones to sell on the open market, the cost of feeding the extra clones would not eat up a significant portion of the profits from selling them. Provided you donGÇÖt exceed the capacity of the district by too much. Going 100 clones over capacity should be quite manageable, but by the time you get 200 over capacity it should start to become a major expense.
So that takes care of clones not being a liability, but it does not necessarily provide enough incentive for Corporations to want to hold districts. If there are Corporations buying Clone packs, it could be very profitable, but if there is more supply than demand you might not be able to sell your clones profitably.
I am starting to think Pokey Dravon had it right, that there needs to be other opportunities for active ISK generation. PVE, and the ability to tax your players as they collect bounties on Rouge Drones in your district is obviously the best answer, but we donGÇÖt know when PVE will be ready.
What are some other forms of active ISK generation that could be implemented without a large programming effort?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1410
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Posted - 2014.04.11 16:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Personally, I think you need to remove clones from the profit equation completely. Lets face it, it was a stopgap measure put in place because CCP did not have adequate time to incorporate 'careers' into Dust formally. If Dust is to succeed and have a more fixed link with EVE, districts need to produce something that is of value to both mercs and/or pilots. It needs to be something that is in demand on the market and not just to those that are interested in getting into PC.
There are a couple ways that this can be done while keeping the ISK generation 'active'
- District infrastructures actually doing what they are supposed to - Production facilities have corporate manufacturing slots that allow the production of various items that can either be used in Dust or in EVE. Dust would be weapons/suits/vehicles while EVE would be something such as implants. These slots/timers would have to be actively managed. Research facilities would be able to take the base weapons/vehicles or implants and increase their meta level (ie take a assault rifle and turn it into a GEK or Douvolle etc) over time. Cargo Hubs would need to have adjustments as I think a Mining Hub or something would be more appropriate. Each of these facilities would also give a bonus to similar activities performed at stations withing x AU of the district for alliance members (reduction in manufacturing/research times or bonus yield to mining at belts)
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
12273
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Posted - 2014.04.11 18:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
I would say delink it from pure ISK generation entirely. Having the open market as a regulator is a decent idea - but it simply won't work with clones and maintenance costs and suchlike.
I very much support Canari's idea of having manufacturing facilities and suchlike. Rather than having 8 million ISK off a district in a day, it would likely be better to have a couple dozen proto items or something along those lines.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
EUrobro
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2918
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Posted - 2014.04.11 19:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
So... no clone maintenance cost.
Have the ability to set a district to either sell excess clones to an NPC Corp for Biomas, or sell them on the open market. Have the biomass price fairly low (not the great ISK generator that we have today). If selling on the open market, be able to set market rules to sell at a specified price, but have the clones die if not purchased within 30 days. (Potentially high profits, but risk of no profit.) Have the selling Corp listed so the purchaser can use source as well as price to make their purchasing decision.
Have Production Facilities produce one type of consumable mercenary equipment at a time, with the ability to chance what it is producing at any time. The rate of production will depend on the complexity of the item. (Which will relate to value.) So a Production facility might produce 100 Proto Suits per day, or it might produce 26 Assault Dropships per day. Materials would be used in the manufacturing process, which could be purchased from the EVE market, or gotten in other ways.
Have Research Facilities able to reduce the material cost or increase the production rate of up to 5 Production Facilities owned by the same Corp on the same planet.
Have Storage Facilities changed to a mining operation similar to PI in EVE. This could be an alternate source of the materials needed in the manufacturing process, or they could be sold on the open market.
Have anyone with the Planetary Management Officer role able to change the settings on these facilities.
Moving to & from the Market:
Items going to market or coming from the market are picked up or dropped off at the POCO. A Currier contract is automatically generated with an NPC courier by default, but the customer can opt to make it a public or private contract. The NPC courier will make its run during the next Down Time. Public and Private courier contracts may be faster or slower as it is player dependent. The customer will be charged a significant fee for shipping with the NPC courier. On private contracts the customer can set the pay and the collateral.
A pilot can set destination, pay, and size criteria and take all contracts they qualify for going to that destination. UI needs to be able to handle grouping of many small orders so that it does not become a repetitive and frustrating task.
On Private and Public contracts, if the ship gets blown up, or the items are not delivered on time, then the customer gets the collateral that was put up by the pilot when he/she accepted the contract.
This system sets up a nice cottage industry for new pilots with an Industrial ship doing multiple short runs.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2918
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Posted - 2014.04.11 20:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Actually having mining and production in DUST be at the Corp level, using District Infrastructure, is probably a good way to go about it. Then a Corp will only need a few Spreadsheet Jockeys, and the rest of the Corp can ignore the complexity and just go about their job of shooting people in the face.
It would also mean that ex EVE players who have bad hand/eye coordination might still find a place in top PC Corps if they are interested in managing the infrastructure.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1944
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Posted - 2014.04.11 21:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fox and I are on the same thought process on this one (Though like others said I'm not a fan of the maintenance cost, but I do like infrastructure upgrades for ISK).
I would not make clones be the primary form of ISK generation from a district though they should serve a purpose besides pure combat and should be sold. However being sold to an NPC is just an ISK faucet and I would rather they be sold to other players instead. Clones need to be shipped off planet either by NPC (for a fee) or by an EVE pilot before they can be sold, and there should be a %-Clone Death during this process (smaller percent if done by an EVE pilot). So while clones can be sold for profit, the main method of generating money with a district should be completely separate from clones.
I outline this more in my PC 2.0 Conceptual Design that Fox referenced earlier, but in short Districts also produce, weapons, suits, gear, ect. which must be shipped off planet much like clones would. These items would be placed in a Corp Store and sold to other players for a profit. It's important to note that this also stops the injection of ISK into the market, and makes money off other players, not off the system producing ISK from nothing.
While I don't think these measures alone would 'fix' PC, they would create a more rounded and stable ISK production without damaging the (albeit potential) economy. Again if you want more information on my concept for PC 2.0 check it out in the link below. It's a full image instead of just text which makes it a little easier to understand the interactions within the system.
PC 2.0 Conceptual Design
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1410
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Posted - 2014.04.11 23:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think the main idea needs to be that each district has some sort of manual work that needs to be done on it for it to be profitable such as setting up production schedules, managing material transfers, research slots etc. The more work you put in to gain your ISK, the less any corp can actually hold for value as they would not have the time to effectively use all districts unless they are 'rented' out to other corps.
I just think that anything having to do with clones themselves is a bad move because it is of zero use to EVE with no link. Having slots that can be used to create either Dust or EVE equipment would be a big boon to either side and get EVE pilots interested in PC.
Clones should simply have a timer that fills them up and they 'degrade' over time which means that a district can never hold more than its 'max' amount.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1944
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Posted - 2014.04.12 02:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:I think the main idea needs to be that each district has some sort of manual work that needs to be done on it for it to be profitable such as setting up production schedules, managing material transfers, research slots etc. The more work you put in to gain your ISK, the less any corp can actually hold for value as they would not have the time to effectively use all districts unless they are 'rented' out to other corps.
I just think that anything having to do with clones themselves is a bad move because it is of zero use to EVE with no link. Having slots that can be used to create either Dust or EVE equipment would be a big boon to either side and get EVE pilots interested in PC.
Clones should simply have a timer that fills them up and they 'degrade' over time which means that a district can never hold more than its 'max' amount.
You should take a look at my above linked document, specifically tying PvE into PC in order to discourage small groups holding large amounts of land at once.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2920
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Posted - 2014.04.12 18:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yeah the more we talk about this the more I spiral back to Pokey DravonGÇÖs proposal.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1947
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Posted - 2014.04.12 20:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think PvE will have countless uses and be an invaluable tool in the game's overall systems.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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