Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
663
   |
Posted - 2014.04.02 23:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Where to begin:
CRNWLLC wrote:I read a thread on this topic by Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui, but wanted to start my own since my reply was long winded. Here's my take on the situation. I don't think any of the Minnie suits need more stamina or better stamina regen--they all have the second largest base stamina pools with the best repping, so it only takes <= 4 seconds for any of the suits to completely restore its stamina. Their stamina recovery is way, way stronger than the Gal's built in armor reps and the Cal's bonuses to shield regen/regen delay, since Minnie stamina recovers so much, and immediately, to boot. In EVE, Minmatar are big on speed tanking (their ships are almost universally faster than any other race's of the same type), with a solid ability to shield tank or armor tank. This is because most Minnie ships have great slot layout, with ample mids for EWAR or shield tanking, and ample lows for weapon upgrades or armor tanking. Minnie ships do not have the most capacitor, which deserves pointing out because capacitor is the closest EVE analog to Dust's stamina, and it's used to power afterburners/micro warpdrives, which are the basic speed tanking mods and which, to continue the analogy, determines how far you can "run" in EVE. The analogy also makes sense considering that Amarr suits have the most stamina in Dust and their ships in EVE typically have the most capacitor (because they use energy weapons). This is cool because it would be unbalanced, by default, for the fastest player to also have the most stamina/cap/juice/etc.
There is only 1 maybe two suits minmatar have that don't have balanced slot layouts. Admittedly the assault should have a 4/3 and the caldari assault should have a 5/2 layout. Overall the minnies have a split slot layout with a slight bias towards highs, just like eve.
Slot layout makes sense for all suits except the Cal and Min assault suits. Their assault suit slot layouts are back-asswards. Cal assault should be 5 high/2 low, Min should be 4 high/3 low. This would be much more inline with lore/EVE. And, since the number of high/low slots isn't the same for each race's suit at each level (eg, Cal proto logi has 9 total high/low slots, Min and Gal have 8, Amarr has 7), I'm in favor of adding an extra low to the Minnie assault at the advanced level.
The stamina regen bonus of the minmatar is so high that it completely outclasses any stamina pool bonus the amarr could have. Especially since jumps/actions are not directly related to a specific amount of stamina, there is really no justification for the insane stamina regen minmatar have. In eve they have bad capacitor (although their weapons are capless) and bad cap regen. In dust they have the equivelent of a free complex cardiac regulator for stamina regen. It is out of place.
Quote:So, the moral of my story is that Minnie suits should further outclass other race's suits on speed, should have the second best armor and shield repping abilities (which are inconsistent across types of suit--eg, the Minnie heavy/sentinel suit is either equaled or outdone by the Amarr's shield repping; not so the assault suits), and should have enough low slots to armor tank fairly.
No and no. Minmatar should have the 3rd best armor and the 2nd best shield. In eve, amarr = best armor buffer, 2nd best armor reppers. The gallente are of course the premiere armor reppers and 2nd best armor buffers. Minmatar have always been much more shield tankers than armor tankers.
Also, the speed advantage is significant. Not only does it allow minmatar suits to traverse the f-ed up terrain in this game MUCH easier, they can jump over more ledges, strafe (dodge bullets) better, and get to every point in the map fastest. This also means that the minmatar can quickly move from cover to cover, allowing someone to mitigaet the lower HP total through less damage exposure.
Quote:
HereGÇÖre some base HP ration, for comparison (Cal and Gal suits have the same base EHP), with speed thrown in for fun (remember, speed tanking =/= endurance/most stamina). I didnGÇÖt include scout suits because, IMO, theyGÇÖre balanced, and EHP is least relevant for them.
Sentinel/Basic heavy
Cal/Gal / Amarr => 915 EHP / 960 EHP => 95.31% (ie, <5% difference)
Min / Cal/Gal => 825 EHP / 915 EHP => 90.16% (ie, almost 10% difference)
Cal/Gal speed / Min speed => 3.85 / 4.05 => 95.06% (ie, <5% difference)
AM speed -> min speed=> 3.65/4.05 => 90.12% (ie, almost 10% difference)
Commando
Cal/Gal / Amarr => 650 EHP / 680 EHP => 95.59% (ie, <5% difference)
Min / Cal/Gal => 560 EHP / 650 EHP => 86.15% (ie, almost 14% difference)
Am / Min speed => 3.85 / 4.25 => 90.58% (almost 10%)
Cal/Gal / Min speed => 4.05 / 4.25 => 95.29% (<5% difference)
Assault
Cal/Gal / Amarr => 330 EHP / 360 EHP => 91.67% (<10% difference)
Min / Cal/Gal => 285 EHP / 330 EHP => 86.36% (almost 14% difference)
Am / Min speed => 4.8 / 5.3 => 90.57% (<10% difference)
min / Cal/Gal speed => 5 / 5.3 => 94.34% (almost 6% difference)
Logi
Cal/Gal / Amarr => 270 EHP / 300 EHP => 90% (10% difference)
Min / Cal/Gal => 240 EHP / 270 EHP => 88.89% (>10% difference)
Am / Min speed => 4.55 / 5 => 91% (<10% difference)
Cal/Gal / Min speed => 94% (6% difference)
Fix that for you: yep looks like balance to me.
I address the rest in a follow up post.
Fixing swarms
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
663
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 23:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:
As you can see, the Minnie suits are disadvantaged compared to their counterparts as their tanking style is outcompeted by those of their rivals. Their slightly improved speed will never make up for their serious lack of EHP. It roughly shakes out like this:
Min vs. Cal/Gal: 5-6% better speed for 10-14% less EHP
Min vs. Amarr: 9-10% better speed for 15-20+% less EHP
To quote Johnnie Cochran and the Wookie Defense: GÇ£This does not make senseGÇ¥.
As you can see, the speed difference consititutes a difference of a basic module, the basic complex kinetic module, of course you can never make up for base speed (which effects strafing/jumping)
So lets see what the difference in eHP is compared to that same basic module.
Scout/logi 30 HP (35% basic module)
assault 45 hp (52% basic module)
commando/sentinel 90 HP (103% basic module)
Wow look at that, only when you get to the heavies does the difference between bonuses balance out... but wait a second:
Minmatar stamina regen bonus over standard is at the very least 150%, making it worth half of a complex cardiac regulator (the more important half).
Oh and all minmatar suits hack at 5% faster speeds? There is another half of a basic module there.
yep, I would say minmatar suits are just fine, and that by trying to compete in terms of eHP you are trying to make the suits something that they are not and should not be.
Fixing swarms
|