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Thokk Nightshade
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Posted - 2014.04.01 03:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
GeneralButtNaked wrote: 1a.Cut Sniper Rifle range to 300m.
1b.There is no logical reason for a sniper to have more range than a large railgun.
2. More than that, CCP should not reward redline play at all. Making Snipers come out into the field of play is what is really needed.
3. Only then should CCP consider buffing the Sniper.
I went through and numbered your comments, hope you don't mind. 
1. The railgun argument has some basis so I can somewhat agree with that. however, instead of nerfing the sniper, give the railgun a longer range.
What is the point of being a Sniper if you have to be in range of assault weapons to use them? I have to get into my stance (making me immobile), pull my rifle up, line up the shot, and shoot, while you are putting 10-15-20 rounds in me at the same distance. I get a total of 3-5 shots before reloading and you have a 50 round or more per magazine on rapid fire.
What you are saying is taking away the entire point of a sniper... Reach out and touch someone . The entire purpose of a Sniper (real world) is long range suppression and assistance. Right now it is a 2.5 to 1 ratio (250 vs. 600). That isn't unrealistic by any means, If anything, it is underwhelming. Just like in real life, Snipers SHOULD have more distance to their shots. A 338 Lapua or a 416 Rigby (or a Barrett .50 Cal while we're talking about it) have much longer accurate ranges than an M-16 or AK-47. The three previously mentioned can all reach out to about a mile (the Barrett .50 in 2012 had a confirmed kill at 1.75 miles. Granted, that's a world record, but a 1 mile shot is not unheard of anymore in the sniping world, just extremely difficult.) However, the documented and accepted max effective range is 1.1 miles.
An M16A2 has a max effective range for AREA, not person specific, targets of about 1/2 a mile; an M4 is only 1/3 of a mile. I know as of 2008 the Army didn't even do shooting (for regular forces, I'm not sure on SF, etc.) of 330 yards which is less than 2/10 of a mile. An AK-47 only has about a 225 yard max effective distance which is about 1/10 of a mile. So really, if an assault rifle has a max effective range of 250, we should be seeing 1000 minimum distance which is only 4 times farther, not the 6 times farther of the standard world.
2. Agree. I'm a Sniper and I don't care for the guys who redline camp with no overwatch position and just pad k/d ratios. I think someone mentioned making any kills from the redline out be zero WP and does not count as a kill. By all means, go for it. I also like the idea of occasionally napalming the whole redline to keep people honest. Or, have something set up on the suits so if someone is in the redline for a total of 5 minutes, the suit goes boom. It would have to be total time because there are people who would sit in the redline for 4 minutes and 45 seconds, pop out, then pop back in. Nope. After 3 total minutes, the suit blows. After the first time, you only get 1 minute of total time and then the suit blows up as well.
3. For the record, since open beta I have been a dedicated Sniper. That was about the only thing my stats were even put into. However, I have recently started running Logi. This is because the game has basically made the Sniper irrelevant. I used to pick up 20 kills a game with no real problem. However, the nerfing/maps have made that nigh impossible.
The maps and their layouts have taken the sniper out of 80% of them. I don't want to be a guy just sitting up in the hills picking a few guys off and getting 4-5 kills a game. But many of the maps are set up where there is no Line of Sight to any or only 1 of the Null cannons on the map. If that single null cannon isn't being contested, there's not a whole lot I can do. Until recently, I only had sniper skills so I'm not going charging into the middle of a firefight at 100 meters and in just to get whacked.
On that same note, it is really upsetting when I get into a position to be helpful to the team, see a bunch of reds on a ledge, put 5 or 6 rounds from a maxed out Charge Sniper Rifle (running 3 complex and 1 enhanced light damage modifier) into someone and they don't go down. I had a game recently where there were 3 guys on a ledge (1 heavy and 2 mediums I believe). I put 25 rounds into the three of them. I'd be willing to bet 19 of them hit. I didn't kill one of them. I once hit a heavy with 3 HEAD SHOTS in a row and they still had almost full armor. When I can put 100 rounds out during a match, put 60% on target (I'd say that is a good # for this debate), and I'm only ending up with 6 kills, there is something wrong here. Look at the info in my first comment. Each weapon in this game has it's real world counterpart (the rail and forge gun are protos but there is still something out there.) Most machine guns take several rounds through armor. A shotgun blast is going to take out pretty much anything at close range. On the same note, a Barrett .50 Cal (or anything used for sniping by most miltary snipers) are a one shot, one kill type of weapon. It doesn't make sense that a weapon that should theoretically be a 2 shot at most weapon can't take someone out with 6 or 7 shots.
Something needs to be done to make the Sniper at least a viable option on the battlefield instead of relegating it into uselessness. |
Thokk Nightshade
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Posted - 2014.04.02 00:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Maximillian Marquis wrote:Thokk Nightshade wrote:[quote=GeneralButtNaked]
What is the point of being a Sniper if you have to be in range of assault weapons to use them? I have to get into my stance (making me immobile), pull my rifle up, line up the shot, and shoot, while you are putting 10-15-20 rounds in me at the same distance. I get a total of 3-5 shots before reloading and you have a 50 round or more per magazine on rapid fire.
What you are saying is taking away the entire point of a sniper... Reach out and touch someone . The entire purpose of a Sniper (real world) is long range suppression and assistance. Right now it is a 2.5 to 1 ratio (250 vs. 600). That isn't unrealistic by any means, If anything, it is underwhelming. Just like in real life, Snipers SHOULD have more distance to their shots. A 338 Lapua or a 416 Rigby (or a Barrett .50 Cal while we're talking about it) have much longer accurate ranges than an M-16 or AK-47. The three previously mentioned can all reach out to about a mile (the Barrett .50 in 2012 had a confirmed kill at 1.75 miles. Granted, that's a world record, but a 1 mile shot is not unheard of anymore in the sniping world, just extremely difficult.) However, the documented and accepted max effective range is 1.1 miles.
An M16A2 has a max effective range for AREA, not person specific, targets of about 1/2 a mile; an M4 is only 1/3 of a mile. I know as of 2008 the Army didn't even do shooting (for regular forces, I'm not sure on SF, etc.) of 330 yards which is less than 2/10 of a mile. An AK-47 only has about a 225 yard max effective distance which is about 1/10 of a mile. So really, if an assault rifle has a max effective range of 250, we should be seeing 1000 minimum distance which is only 4 times farther, not the 6 times farther of the standard world.
The maps and their layouts have taken the sniper out of 80% of them. I don't want to be a guy just sitting up in the hills picking a few guys off and getting 4-5 kills a game. But many of the maps are set up where there is no Line of Sight to any or only 1 of the Null cannons on the map. If that single null cannon isn't being contested, there's not a whole lot I can do. Until recently, I only had sniper skills so I'm not going charging into the middle of a firefight at 100 meters and in just to get whacked.
On that same note, it is really upsetting when I get into a position to be helpful to the team, see a bunch of reds on a ledge, put 5 or 6 rounds from a maxed out Charge Sniper Rifle (running 3 complex and 1 enhanced light damage modifier) into someone and they don't go down. I had a game recently where there were 3 guys on a ledge (1 heavy and 2 mediums I believe). I put 25 rounds into the three of them. I'd be willing to bet 19 of them hit. I didn't kill one of them. I once hit a heavy with 3 HEAD SHOTS in a row and they still had almost full armor. When I can put 100 rounds out during a match, put 60% on target (I'd say that is a good # for this debate), and I'm only ending up with 6 kills, there is something wrong here. Look at the info in my first comment. Each weapon in this game has it's real world counterpart (the rail and forge gun are protos but there is still something out there.) Most machine guns take several rounds through armor. A shotgun blast is going to take out pretty much anything at close range. On the same note, a Barrett .50 Cal (or anything used for sniping by most miltary snipers) are a one shot, one kill type of weapon. It doesn't make sense that a weapon that should theoretically be a 2 shot at most weapon can't take someone out with 6 or 7 shots.
Something needs to be done to make the Sniper at least a viable option on the battlefield instead of relegating it into uselessness. 1) Excellent information. I am happy to see that there are people informed on real world rifle operation and understand the difference in point and area targetting. 2) I think I love you (see point 1) 3) One thing that bugs me is that the Barrett .50 Cal gets called a "sniper" rifle. I dont care what the manufacturer calls it, I dont care what random users call it. In functionality it is an anti-material rifle and in the service it is classified as such. I'm not harping on YOU specifically, especially considering the information you seem to have. But there are many out there that are just flat unaware of what anti-material weapons are/do. /rant 4) Your ledge example is something I have experienced first hand on multiple occasions. Heavy's are just what their name implies....big, slow, and armored to hell and back. I have no issues with it taking 4-5 rounds to drop one. You have to consider that The Sniper Rifle does considerably less damage to shields eating up multiple bullets....but once those are gone....its magic time! This is highly apparent with the caldari heavy's. Medium suits on the other hand eating 2-3 bullets from a Charged SR or 2 from a Thales though.....so sorry but there is something massively wrong with that. 5) ****Will finishing editing later, emergency situation arose****
1&2. Thank you very much, and for the record, the love is reciprocated for understanding the knowledge and difference!  Like you said, most people have no clue what a Sniper really does.
3. O.K., yes, you are technically correct about the Barrett. Anything throwing that much grain weight downrange should not have a primary job of individual suppression. It is used to punch holes in engine blocks of vehicles and punch through concrete walls. However, there are records of people using it for the purpose of individual suppression and takedown, so I included it as the extreme end of the spectrum.
4. Yeah, the shield/armor ratios are something I didn't really take into consideration. Good call. |
Thokk Nightshade
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Posted - 2014.04.02 23:02:00 -
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Outer Raven wrote:Thokk Nightshade wrote:GeneralButtNaked wrote: 1a.Cut Sniper Rifle range to 300m.
1b.There is no logical reason for a sniper to have more range than a large railgun.
2. More than that, CCP should not reward redline play at all. Making Snipers come out into the field of play is what is really needed.
3. Only then should CCP consider buffing the Sniper. I went through and numbered your comments, hope you don't mind. 1. The railgun argument has some basis so I can somewhat agree with that. however, instead of nerfing the sniper, give the railgun a longer range. Actually on the topic of the sniper rifle range it "is" already around 300m or so for its range. Once upon a time you could hit people at 800m+ which is when I started sniping in this game, then CCP did the range reduction on all lines of sight and cut down the range of the sniper rifle as well. Currently with a prototype sniper rifle you can see people up to 400 ish meters buuut you can't actually hit them at that length as you get the blue dot or people simply disappear from your view. This is the reason why on certain maps you can only take out Thales users with a Thales yourself if sniping since with any other rifle they wouldn't even render. But even then the Thales which is hailed as the best sniper rifle or most adequate doesn't hit past the 400-500m range and definitely no longer can get a 600m kill due again to the blue dot restriction. So the idea that the SR needs any more adjustments to its range is just ludicrous at this point and would just make it the (worst) RR in Dust period. Currently for it to be even remotely usable for taking down targets you need either 3-5 dmg mods or a commando suit plus the mods, coupled with map sockets deigned specifically to counter all sniping instead of incorporating options for all styles of play to be cohesive. Any further nerfs to the sniper rifle and CCP should just change them into futuristic looking bats as they will serve no purpose other than to look interesting an at least as a melee weapon they can finally get support from the Devs.
I'm not sure if that was intended for the original person's comment or you misunderstood my position. I'm arguing for MORE distance for the Sniper rifle, more damage, and better optics, not worse. The person mentioned a rail gun not having the same distance, and I was just suggesting if you want to complain about the distance, give the rail gun a farther distance to make it more comparable to a Sniper. Don't nerf the sniper rifles even more than they already have been. Snipers have been handcuffed enough with the updates. I'm guessing you didn't mean to include my comments on your response and if that is the case, sorry for the confusion.
I'm going to disagree with you however on the distance issue. The day after the 1.8 update, I was Sniping and I had two confirmed kills at over 400 meters. I had a headshot kill (longest shot) at 512. I'm using a Charge Sniper. From what I've seen on different forums, etc, it sounds like the max distance is around 600m. I can sit on a hill and look at a null cannon with a 500 m distance on it and see people walking around and hit them. It is darn difficult, but it is still possible. However, I agree with the main point that they have definitely restricted the scopes compared to the old versions of the game. They need to do something with the scope magnification so if it will reach out to 600 or so meters, the user is able to SEE up to 600 meters. This is a futuristic game/firearm. We should get more than a standard 9 power scope on it.
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Thokk Nightshade
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:43:00 -
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TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Sad Heavy wrote:Delta 749 wrote:Leonid Tybalt wrote:Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Snipers are just below tankers in total selfishness/worthlessness. It's a role that CCP threw in to appeal to the coward demographic. Just like tanks. Suck my massive tanker d!ck, you little scrub. Im no coward. I've never hidden out in the redline, and my main target have always been other tanks. So I definitely put myself and my expensive tanks on the line. A lot of the times i'm even alone against several other tanks, because useless noobs like you think that you should get away with only speccing into infantry crap. I cover YOUR ass from the blaster maddys and somas that would've buttraped you if I wasn't there. So take your "coward demographic" remark and shove it. OnT: Hate my own teams snipers for that very reason. There are ways to **** them off though. When I see a bunch of chickenshit snipers hiding in our redline and the battle is going bad, I run up to them and crouch right in front of them, blocking their scopes and field of view. Claims hes not a coward Sits in a safety shell with thousands of EHP that resists most weapons and self heals I really don't understand the tanker hate, why group all tankers in the same category? I said it earlier in my diatribe on page 5, the 16v16 count doesn't need HAVs unless they are made of paper which defeats their purpose. It's an out of place mechanic that is either going to be underpowered (pre-1.7) or overpowered (post 1.7.) It's either been the useless expensive toy that the team didn't need or it's the bully on the playground giving wedgies and pushing kids around. I don't think tankers are cowards myself, they just are either unnecessary or game breaking in every iteration of Dust.
I'm going to agree on what I believe is the major premise of this comment. With 16 v 16 battles, having 2-3 tanks and a couple gorgons flying around throw the balance entirely out of whack. If the game was even 24 v 24 or better yet 50+ per side (which I know the servers can't handle and I'm not suggesting, so don't rip me for saying that), then bring on the tanks, the dropships, the freaking nukes for all I care. But on such a small scale, they change the dynamics of the game WAY to much.
That being said, I'm not hating on tankers. Do I hate it when I'm running for a building and get blown up by one? Heck yes I do. But it IS part of the game so keep doing you. I don't believe tankers are cowards. You all found a niche in the game (granted what I feel is overpowered and unneeded for the aforementioned reasons) that works for you. Get yours. I just wish it wasn't at my expense. On a final note, the tankers who play like you and only target other tanks/vehicles have my utmost respect. They should be to blow each other up, not pubstomping and padding kdr |
Thokk Nightshade
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Posted - 2014.04.05 06:24:00 -
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lunatis orrak wrote:[quote=Onesimus Tarsus]Snipers are just below tankers in total selfishness/worthlessness. It's a role that CCP threw in to appeal to the coward demographic. Just like tanks.
Yall lucky the snipers arent realistic if the charged sniper was realistic the only thing you would find from a sniper hit would be a few shreds of armor a 50 cal sniper rifle is effective in the right hands at over 1 mile it can literally make dust out of a concrete block it is also capable of stoping vehicles hint of the day after you see someone sniped on the kill feed dont break cover becaus. Unlike in real life snipers in dust do not have the ability to blow through walls
You should read my post on page 2 of this forum. I think we're of the same mindset. |
Thokk Nightshade
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:08:00 -
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lunatis orrak wrote:
Ha glad you typed all that must have read my mind i aggree with you on the redline thing although if they do do that they need to make the interior somewhat sniper friendly limited spots to snipe from makes the redline high ground ideal for the sniper when i do snipe i tend to move around empty a clip move again ( one shot one kill not realy) after you shoot half the time you give your position away sucks
Yeah, there are things that need to be done so a sniper can be down in the middle of the battlefield without having to use a dropship to get there.
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