DUST Search - My Issue with Snipers

Cotsy8 wrote:

TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:

Cotsy8 wrote:

In all honesty sniping is a major role in warfare, yet somehow CCP has failed to make sniper more important in dust.

I know, the community hates snipers. They sit in the redline and take pot shots at players who are actually playing. Yet, given the nerf to damage mods, the terribly unfriendly sniping in maps, the high TTK, the volume of eHP builds, cloaks, etc... The sniper has long been forgotten.

Snipers should be a valuable part of the game, and with the leader controls they should be a highly prized recon/killer/leader/area denier which have a tactical role n a battle. I know the commando class got a nice boost to snipers, but sniping in a heavy suit shouldn't be the plan or the only option. There should be more suits, maybe a better bonus to dam mods or weapon damage for snipers, and a better sniping mechanic.

Its not always the easiest thing to kill a redline sniper, and snipers can easily have a nice 7-9 k/d but their role as a leader, a recon, a tactician should be improved.. And if that requires making sniping more viable at lower tiers, or making maps more sniper friendly then that is what should be done. Because with all these arguments over racial suits and bonuses, and racial weapons blah blah blah no one pays that much attention to snipers and they should not be an after thought cause some elite community prices don't want to take damage while they are running across open spaces like idiots.

>Pretty much all maps are surrounded by giant cliffs

How does one get more sniper friendly? The issue is snipers want a fast TTK which can only be balanced with everyone having a fast TTK which is what everyone hates, because that would make this game CoD like and make mobility/stealth more important then most anything else and would in turn reduce the amount of viable builds. If sniper rifles become 360 no scope watch me be a baws guns then this game will have to fundamentally change what it is trying to be which is not a CoD shooter.

I can one shot kill most STD suits and 2 shot most adv suits with headshots, not really sure what you expect to happen other than I guess one shot killing proto/heavy suits with a headshot? It's a hit scan weapon, it's too easy to head shot as is. This is with a STD sniper and a adv sniper if I'm feeling frisky btw. Thale's head shots can wreck many a suit.

In the end, we don't need 6 snipers on a team and it hurts the team when "you" do that, as in people who do that not necessarily the guy I quoted, just to clarify. I'd rather have 6 potato cannons running at the objective then 6 snipers hanging out in our redline.

This issue isn't being on cliffs, it's about sight lines. You can snipe from a cliff right into the side of a building in 80% of the maps. There is hardly anything except for cliffs is also a problem. Also, there is no sniping suit and the best suit to snipe in is a commando cal suit and that thing sticks out like a snore thumb. Wonder what the big white brick is doing on those red and brown cliffs... Hmm

Again, there are No sight lines for snipers, no real place to be the recon or leader.

You cannot one hit most std suits thats great I'm happy for you, but very few players run standard suits except for noobs who are using the standard frontline/medic/sniper fits. They don't have the benefit for better mods, or better skill points boosts.
Even then, gal suit with 3 armor mods, you might not be able to take that down without a headshot. The point isn't to be a terror on the battlefield, its to be a useful tool and the vast majority of maps do not allow snipers to excel in these role. They are simply a redline sitting, taking shots are people being dumb and crossing open spaces kind of a player.

I'm not a sniper, i spec'd into it once and it was boring as hell. But I would just like to see their roles expanded by having more maps with more sight lines, maybe more sniper oriented suits and a better experience for snipers at lower levels.


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TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 126	Posted - 2014.04.01 04:29:00 - [1] - Quote I agree with you OP, only problem I have with snipers is when there are too many of them on my team. That's why I always tell new players if they want to snipe to skill into another light weapon like a rifle FIRST, then skill into the sniper. Only being able to use a sniper rifle is going to make you useless most of the time. A team only needs 1-3 depending on the map and objectives. Versatility is king, ignore CCP with the whole specialize first thing, what CCP planned for this game to be, and what it actually is are miles apart. Ignore this of course if you have a bunch of friends that you always squad with, then of course do whatever you guys planned on doing. If you are a newberry lone wolf though, do not specialize first, especially not into sniper rifles.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 126	Posted - 2014.04.01 04:32:00 - [2] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: P14GU3 wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: Cut Sniper Rifle range to 300m. There is no logical reason for a sniper to have more range than a large railgun. More than that, CCP should not reward redline play at all. Making Snipers come out into the field of play is what is really needed. Only then should CCP consider buffing the Sniper. Really i could care less about their range, let thwm shoot from one side of the map to the other for all i care. Just dont reward people for shooting out of the redline. Its a seriously broken mechanic. No one should be able to earn points for killing in the redline. It would help solve the sniper/redline stomp issues. I have never seen sniper and stomp in the same sentence . Gemcutter... Singlehandedly will shut down PC teams... Has shut down Pub's just the same... He's the name that people talk about when thinking about an effective sniper that does the job an entire squad can by himself. Given the vulnerabilities snipers have, I must assume that you are either telling stories or said pc teams/pubs were awful. There's a lot of things that can kill a sniper that a sniper can't touch, especially HAVs and dropships.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 126	Posted - 2014.04.01 04:40:00 - [3] - Quote Didn't dispute that he may be a good sniper, don't know or care about your or his Epeen. There's a guy who can hit a target from 200 yards with a snub nose .38 revolver so I don't doubt that someone can use a KB/M or controller to be l337 on the video gamez. Disputed that he singlehandedly (This means by yourself by the way) locked down a GOOD PC team. As for the reasons, see HAVS and dropships... because he can snipe a penny at a 1000 meters and that won't mean **** if it can't cause damage to the vehicle. No need to get all chest puffy, you exaggerated and I called it. Also, this game has no bullet physics, the sniper rifle is hit scan... that is all.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 126	Posted - 2014.04.01 05:00:00 - [4] - Quote Bethhy wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Didn't dispute that he may be a good sniper, don't know or care about your or his Epeen. There's a guy who can hit a target from 200 yards with a snub nose .38 revolver so I don't doubt that someone can use a KB/M or controller to be l337 on the video gamez. Disputed that he singlehandedly (This means by yourself by the way) locked down a GOOD PC team. As for the reasons, see HAVS and dropships... because he can snipe a penny at a 1000 meters and that won't mean **** if it can't cause damage to the vehicle. No need to get all chest puffy, you exaggerated and I called it. Also, this game has no bullet physics, the sniper rifle is hit scan... that is all. A Dropship or a Tank does nothing for taking and holding letters... They are part of the strategy to do so... And are useless against a sniper... As you said? I didn't think that simple nuance needed explaining... I don't have to exaggerate.. it's what happened. alot. Against no, I never said a tank/dropship can't stop a sniper. That was the exact opposite of what I said and what you should of read there. Pretty sure tanks or Dropships can kill a sniper, assuming it's not a Thale's Redline sniper who is head glitching. If Gemcutter is one of THOSE snipers, then lol, there are still ways to stop that again assuming this guy is singlehandedly holding off the other team. Otherwise, I draw back to the whole singlehandedly argument because although this statement would mean Gemcutter must hold the objective and the other team alone with his sniper the other team can employ any combination that 16 allows. Stop getting all crotchety, I pointed out the flaws in your boasting symantecs and you're trying to defend it for some silly reason. Slow your roll dingleberry.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 126	Posted - 2014.04.01 05:31:00 - [5] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: In all honesty sniping is a major role in warfare, yet somehow CCP has failed to make sniper more important in dust. I know, the community hates snipers. They sit in the redline and take pot shots at players who are actually playing. Yet, given the nerf to damage mods, the terribly unfriendly sniping in maps, the high TTK, the volume of eHP builds, cloaks, etc... The sniper has long been forgotten. Snipers should be a valuable part of the game, and with the leader controls they should be a highly prized recon/killer/leader/area denier which have a tactical role n a battle. I know the commando class got a nice boost to snipers, but sniping in a heavy suit shouldn't be the plan or the only option. There should be more suits, maybe a better bonus to dam mods or weapon damage for snipers, and a better sniping mechanic. Its not always the easiest thing to kill a redline sniper, and snipers can easily have a nice 7-9 k/d but their role as a leader, a recon, a tactician should be improved.. And if that requires making sniping more viable at lower tiers, or making maps more sniper friendly then that is what should be done. Because with all these arguments over racial suits and bonuses, and racial weapons blah blah blah no one pays that much attention to snipers and they should not be an after thought cause some elite community prices don't want to take damage while they are running across open spaces like idiots. >Pretty much all maps are surrounded by giant cliffs How does one get more sniper friendly? The issue is snipers want a fast TTK which can only be balanced with everyone having a fast TTK which is what everyone hates, because that would make this game CoD like and make mobility/stealth more important then most anything else and would in turn reduce the amount of viable builds. If sniper rifles become 360 no scope watch me be a baws guns then this game will have to fundamentally change what it is trying to be which is not a CoD shooter. I can one shot kill most STD suits and 2 shot most adv suits with headshots, not really sure what you expect to happen other than I guess one shot killing proto/heavy suits with a headshot? It's a hit scan weapon, it's too easy to head shot as is. This is with a STD sniper and a adv sniper if I'm feeling frisky btw. Thale's head shots can wreck many a suit. In the end, we don't need 6 snipers on a team and it hurts the team when "you" as in people who do that not necessarily the guy I quoted, just to clarify. I'd rather have 6 potato cannons running at the objective then 6 snipers hanging out in our redline.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 126	Posted - 2014.04.01 05:55:00 - [6] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: There are good and bad players. You can compare good tankers who use their mobility, durability and weaponry to tip the balance of a fight near an objective so reinforcements can come and help you hold it with redline rail snipers who can't hold their own without such an overwhelming range advantage AND a ton of HP backing them up when someone comes close. You can compare a skilled Shotgun Scout to the new brick-tanked cloaker who dies when they run at someone thinking their "invisibility" will save them. You can compare a skilled Sniper who moves from perch to perch taking out critical targets at just the right time with a redline rail sniper who's basically a miniature bad tanker. It doesn't matter which you look at, there are good players, and bad players, in every role. Bad snipers are offensive because for the most part, they look like afkers. They often have the same post-game stats for Kills/Assists/Deaths and sometimes even shots fired. If they implemented COMPETENT anti-afk measures, those would target redline snipers as well. Or they could always take a page from most modern battlefield type games and have the redline be a barrier that can only be passed out of and not into so players can regroup safely but they can't hide behind it/shoot through it. Instead we have ye olde deserters will be shot! mechanics circa battlefield 1942.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 127	Posted - 2014.04.01 06:22:00 - [7] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: In all honesty sniping is a major role in warfare, yet somehow CCP has failed to make sniper more important in dust. I know, the community hates snipers. They sit in the redline and take pot shots at players who are actually playing. Yet, given the nerf to damage mods, the terribly unfriendly sniping in maps, the high TTK, the volume of eHP builds, cloaks, etc... The sniper has long been forgotten. Snipers should be a valuable part of the game, and with the leader controls they should be a highly prized recon/killer/leader/area denier which have a tactical role n a battle. I know the commando class got a nice boost to snipers, but sniping in a heavy suit shouldn't be the plan or the only option. There should be more suits, maybe a better bonus to dam mods or weapon damage for snipers, and a better sniping mechanic. Its not always the easiest thing to kill a redline sniper, and snipers can easily have a nice 7-9 k/d but their role as a leader, a recon, a tactician should be improved.. And if that requires making sniping more viable at lower tiers, or making maps more sniper friendly then that is what should be done. Because with all these arguments over racial suits and bonuses, and racial weapons blah blah blah no one pays that much attention to snipers and they should not be an after thought cause some elite community prices don't want to take damage while they are running across open spaces like idiots. >Pretty much all maps are surrounded by giant cliffs How does one get more sniper friendly? The issue is snipers want a fast TTK which can only be balanced with everyone having a fast TTK which is what everyone hates, because that would make this game CoD like and make mobility/stealth more important then most anything else and would in turn reduce the amount of viable builds. If sniper rifles become 360 no scope watch me be a baws guns then this game will have to fundamentally change what it is trying to be which is not a CoD shooter. I can one shot kill most STD suits and 2 shot most adv suits with headshots, not really sure what you expect to happen other than I guess one shot killing proto/heavy suits with a headshot? It's a hit scan weapon, it's too easy to head shot as is. This is with a STD sniper and a adv sniper if I'm feeling frisky btw. Thale's head shots can wreck many a suit. In the end, we don't need 6 snipers on a team and it hurts the team when "you" do that, as in people who do that not necessarily the guy I quoted, just to clarify. I'd rather have 6 potato cannons running at the objective then 6 snipers hanging out in our redline. This issue isn't being on cliffs, it's about sight lines. You can snipe from a cliff right into the side of a building in 80% of the maps. There is hardly anything except for cliffs is also a problem. Also, there is no sniping suit and the best suit to snipe in is a commando cal suit and that thing sticks out like a snore thumb. Wonder what the big white brick is doing on those red and brown cliffs... Hmm Again, there are No sight lines for snipers, no real place to be the recon or leader. You cannot one hit most std suits thats great I'm happy for you, but very few players run standard suits except for noobs who are using the standard frontline/medic/sniper fits. They don't have the benefit for better mods, or better skill points boosts. Even then, gal suit with 3 armor mods, you might not be able to take that down without a headshot. The point isn't to be a terror on the battlefield, its to be a useful tool and the vast majority of maps do not allow snipers to excel in these role. They are simply a redline sitting, taking shots are people being dumb and crossing open spaces kind of a player. I'm not a sniper, i spec'd into it once and it was boring as hell. But I would just like to see their roles expanded by having more maps with more sight lines, maybe more sniper oriented suits and a better experience for snipers at lower levels. >Again, there are No sight lines for snipers, no real place to be the recon or leader. >there is no sniping suit and the best suit to snipe in is a commando cal suit You gotta pick one brah, you want to sit outside the map and take pot shots from the cliffs then you roll that cal commando brah, but if you wanna be recon you gotta roll a scout suit brah. There is no sniper suit just like there is no (insert weapon suit) many suits can mix and match weapons. I don't know what to tell ya on the whole not having enough perches thing, tons of maps have perches all over the place and you can always snipe from behind your front lines at the enemy front line if you want to get a little closer. True you can't snipe to well in buildings, but should you be able to snipe well in buildings? You can't do everything well, that's the point of having multiple roles and suits/weapons/etc.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 127	Posted - 2014.04.01 06:27:00 - [8] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: You need to realize that snipers in Domination are the COWARDLY vets who checked the roster and saw who they'd be up against. That many more independents running against the protostomp corps won't win the match. It has already become a simple matter of get your kills while you can until match's end. Some day the new players will realize this simple process until CCP can do something about the pairing of proto tryhard groups looking for easy points using exploitable mechanics to solo casuals just trying to enjoy a good battle with good flow. Fixed! If your not playing to have fun, what's the point of playing the game? K/D ratio? A meaningless number that doesn't serve any real purpose. I don't understand these so called "vets". I just roll whatever I feel like rolling and don't give two ***** what the redberries look like. Imma do what I do, and I agree with you that it's pretty silly with all the hero worship that goes on in this game. Oh no those guys are good... I hope they don't slap me too hard... I don't want them to spill all my spaghetti everywhere! I better go hide.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 146	Posted - 2014.04.04 21:45:00 - [9] - Quote Well you see the issue with buffing sniper rifles to be more realistic is that this is a video game. Render distance is a serious issue on the game engine in use. If you buffed snipers to 1000 meters it wouldn't matter anyways as you cannot see targets a thousand meters away. Making larger maps for Snipers would likewise be moot because of render distance issues. As far as damage is concerned, you can already drop suits real fast if they aren't shield tanked (which is much more rare then armor tanked anyways) if you head shot. The shields deflect the shots so in a sci-fi fantasy it's not far-fetched that it would take several to overheat the shield or whatever. Also this isn't Kevlar, these suits are some sort of sci-fi synthetic compounds reinforced by bionic systems for mobility so it's believable that armor might stop some of the shots. All of that aside we can't actually assume any realism as the world of New Eden is WW2 era Naval and Ground Warfare. It's all laser light shows and all, but in a galaxy so advanced there is no reason they would be blowing up clones alone to pseudo settle disputes. There are space ships hovering above the ground. Anything that can do that, can surely scan for dropsuit signatures and disable the life support on any suits in the area. Likewise with Eve warfare, what is the point in blowing up potential salvage when you could just disable life support. Hacking and system disruption would be more likely with everyone fighting in the vacuum of space then WW2 torpedoes and Star Wars/Trek laser shows. The winners of wars are not the ones who fight purely out of attrition. Here's the thing though, the game needs to be balanced to be fun, not for any semblance of realism. This is the issue that used to exist with tankers after 1.7 (It's diminished since the hardener nerf although Swarms are still garbage and Forge guns are still bugging out misfiring a lot.) We just don't have the render distance to support long range warfare just like we don't have the team sizes to support HAVs that eat everything and run away. If hitting someone in the torso was always a quick kill (Which from charge/thales for example, you can drop non-proto light suits and two shot non-proto mediums in two.) If you want the one shot kill hit the head. If it was easy to one shot drop suits with a sniper rifle then there would be no point to not using the sniper rifle for anti-infantry which would start the age of SR514. The thing about the Sniper Rifle is that it has a MASSIVE effective range over other weapons combined with a scope and hit scan pin point accuracy. You don't have to account for bullet drop in this game so it's already easier then many other shooters. The downside is that you have to keep your distance or switch to a sidearm/light weapon for commandos if someone gets close. This is called game balance. Ideally every weapon should have things that it can do but not well (Like quick scope at close range for the SR) and then there are things that it is great at doing (headshotting at a distance to drop people who couldn't even see you.) Nothing beats the Sniper Rifle at it's niche. The only other Weapon that comes close is the forge gun, which if anyone thinks that thing is OP then use it. The forge gun is better than the PLC potato cannon but it's far from an easy weapon to kill with. On that note, in the right hands sniper rifles are deadly. If you aren't doing well with one just keep practicing, it has massive advantages and the high skill requirement is how such weapons are balanced. Take the AR glory days and the RR/CR/HMG now for example. People get upset about those guns not only because they are effective, but because they are easy to use. Look at the weapons nobody really likes/is competitive with. The LR, PLC, and Flaylock are in the rut that they are in because they are mildly effective and hard to use. Or for another example, there are some weapons that are both effective, but people tend to respect one more over the other because it is harder to use. In this case, the shotgun and the nova knife. Both fill the same role of close quarter combat, but you will see more shotguns then nova knives and people tend to respect knifers more then shot gunners. Why? Because, the shotgun is more effective at close quarter combat then the knova knives. So in the end, the SR is fine where it is. Nothing can touch it's Niche of sneaky death from afar (Forge Gun like the LR has a giant I am here come kill me beam when you use it.) There are many other weapons that need to be addressed on it's niche then the SR for game balance and when it comes to making a good PVP only lobby shooter, nothing is more important than game balance. As to players having issues with too many sniper rifles in Skirm/Dom. You only need one good sniper to cover an objective and in the case of Skirmish, that one good sniper could move around with the rest of the team/a squad to offer support in capping other objectives. That's why snipers get hate, because in King of the Hill game modes the team doesn't need 5 guys off screen pinging the 10 guys rushing the objective against 5. This game is like a MOBA, (LoL or DOTA2, etc.) Your actions help/hurt your team so people freak out a lot. That's why I always suggest that a Sniper Rifle be an auxiliary weapon that you skill into if you are a new player, because rushing to a charged sniper = ineffective when you run into other new players that rushed to SR, where as you can never really go wrong with multiple players with a AR/CR/RR who later skill into the SR.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 146	Posted - 2014.04.04 22:05:00 - [10] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: the ones that annoy me the most are the ones that sit so far in the redzone that not even a dropship can reach em. That's pretty much only Thales Snipers, which honestly there is an easy fix for the whole hiding in the red zone sniping/rail tanking/etc. thing. "Bullet barriers", I don't know of a modern sci fi shooter with protected spawns that doesn't also stop firing into and out of. Edit: Hell even modern shooters with protected spawns place said spawns inside of buildings where there isn't LOS to the objective. This is the only shooter I have played that has protected spawns where you can see the objectives/Map is small enough to see all the objectives in the open.

TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 146	Posted - 2014.04.04 22:26:00 - [11] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: id rather replace the redzone entirely. that should solve the problem with out causing many issues. If they removed it completely on Skirm and Dom than Tankbush514 would come to all game modes and even more people would rage. Although, I think once you're getting red lined your likely going to lose, the game would turn into who can cheese zerg rush the other team in every match. Pretty much the whole game would become PC 2.0 which would probably drop the player base down to the amount of active players in PC which is what? Like maybe 100 players. Game would shut down tomorrow.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 146	Posted - 2014.04.04 22:46:00 - [12] - Quote Shadowswipe wrote: TL:DR entire post. Just remove the redline. Make the MCC able to be invaded by dropships with system wide bio cleaning sweeps every few seconds in the MCC to clear enemies. Then the snipers will just run out to 2 miles away an snipe from there, but at least a red dot can go kill them for you. Get rid of arbitrary walls in games. Let the players do what they want and go where they want. There is a reason Dayz is laggy as hell and why open world games have arbitrary loading zones for different areas. A map that extends too far = your ps3 crashes. That's the whole reason we have poor render distance in this game, because better render distance on this engine = game crashes. Take Minecraft or Terraria for instance. People mock their retro look but it's retro look is less intensive on the system leaving more room for massive environments/dynamic environments. So we will have to pick one. High fidelity of the graphics, or ugly polygons and textures with massive environments. That said, Dust514 won't be changing any of that anyways as the game as it doesn't make anywhere near the amount of money they would need to start from scratch which is what you are asking for by saying remove red lines. It will probably get larger maps and higher player matches when/if it makes its conversion to ps4 in the future, but we're never going to have miles of map environments on dust514, the engine will not support it. It crashes enough as it is when the MCC goes boom. All this aside, a bullet barrier is plausible and won't cause greater stress on the already stressed engine.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 147	Posted - 2014.04.04 23:51:00 - [13] - Quote Sad Heavy wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Leonid Tybalt wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Snipers are just below tankers in total selfishness/worthlessness. It's a role that CCP threw in to appeal to the coward demographic. Just like tanks. Suck my massive tanker d!ck, you little scrub. Im no coward. I've never hidden out in the redline, and my main target have always been other tanks. So I definitely put myself and my expensive tanks on the line. A lot of the times i'm even alone against several other tanks, because useless noobs like you think that you should get away with only speccing into infantry crap. I cover YOUR ass from the blaster maddys and somas that would've buttraped you if I wasn't there. So take your "coward demographic" remark and shove it. OnT: Hate my own teams snipers for that very reason. There are ways to **** them off though. When I see a bunch of chickenshit snipers hiding in our redline and the battle is going bad, I run up to them and crouch right in front of them, blocking their scopes and field of view. Claims hes not a coward Sits in a safety shell with thousands of EHP that resists most weapons and self heals I really don't understand the tanker hate, why group all tankers in the same category? I said it earlier in my diatribe on page 5, the 16v16 count doesn't need HAVs unless they are made of paper which defeats their purpose. It's an out of place mechanic that is either going to be underpowered (pre-1.7) or overpowered (post 1.7.) It's either been the useless expensive toy that the team didn't need or it's the bully on the playground giving wedgies and pushing kids around. I don't think tankers are cowards myself, they just are either unnecessary or game breaking in every iteration of Dust.