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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.04.01 05:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
There are good and bad players.
You can compare good tankers who use their mobility, durability and weaponry to tip the balance of a fight near an objective so reinforcements can come and help you hold it with redline rail snipers who can't hold their own without such an overwhelming range advantage AND a ton of HP backing them up when someone comes close.
You can compare a skilled Shotgun Scout to the new brick-tanked cloaker who dies when they run at someone thinking their "invisibility" will save them.
You can compare a skilled Sniper who moves from perch to perch taking out critical targets at just the right time with a redline rail sniper who's basically a miniature bad tanker.
It doesn't matter which you look at, there are good players, and bad players, in every role.
Bad snipers are offensive because for the most part, they look like afkers. They often have the same post-game stats for Kills/Assists/Deaths and sometimes even shots fired.
If they implemented COMPETENT anti-afk measures, those would target redline snipers as well. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.04.05 06:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:If you cant go 25+ kills per game with a sniper rifle, you are not a good sniper and you are hindering your team.
PERIOD.
Not even remotely true.
Objective modes:
If you have one sniper watching over an objective, and that sniper gets 2 - 3 kills, but also chases off every other enemy approaching the objective, your Sniper has kept that objective secure for a significant portion of the match. If you park a cloaked Shotgun/RE Scout on an objective to defend it, and they only get 2 or 3 kills, but you know that the enemy is avoiding that objective out of fear of the cloaker, they did a good job. What makes the same aciton by a Sniper any less of a valuable contribution?
Ambush:
The objective is to kill all enemies while not dying. If a sniper goes 5:0 in Ambush, they removed 5 clones from the enemy team's clone count, and removed 0 clones from your own team's count. That means that if the match comes down to less than 5 clones, THEIR ACTIONS DECIDED THE BATTLE.
Practical examples:
I run as a Shotgunner, and I have a few friends who play as Snipers. If I'm in a CQC dance with a Heavy and they've already spotted me before I can kill them, I'm in trouble. UNLESS I LURE THEM OUT FOR MY SNIPER FRIEND. If I'm busy fighting someone, and a Heavy comes around the corner while I'm finishing up against his friend, GUESS WHO HAS MY BACK?
When you're about to be killed by an enemy who has lost all their shields, but still has most of their armour, then they suddenly drop before you lose that last sliver of HP? It's probably a sniper who saved your life. Not only did that Sniper contribute a kill for your team, but they also denied one to the enemy.
When several enemies are hacking and/or defending a point, and your overwatch sniper can see them and tell you where they are, you not only get them providing long range supporting fire, but they're also giving you battlefield intel that sometimes exceeds what even a good Scout can provide. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4913
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Posted - 2014.04.05 09:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:The unfortunate draw back of having non-realistic sniper weapons is that they are not an asset to the team. Yep I said it, not an asset.
Address this post a few comments before yours. A good sniper is an asset to the team in many ways.
Quote:How many of the PC teams which were successful were using snipers prior to the collapse of PC?
Go and dig up all the information you can on a player called Gem Cutter. You might be surprised what you learn.
Quote:The reason is that by comparison the other weapons in the game the sniper rifle has no area it actual specializes in. Its even out classed out long range point denial by the forge gun (at least when that weapon fires), a weapon which also can destroy vehicles (again when it can fire).
They WHAT? I'm sorry, but lolno.
Snipers are THE extreme range fire support weapon. Forge Guns can fill a mid-to-long range role, but beyond that, it's Sniper Rifles. There's a limit to how far a Forge can be used accurately enough to kill infantry, and that limit is MUCH closer than the range a good sniper will be killing from.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that snipers are fixed emplacements instead of mobile assets. This is what competent players refer to as a "bad sniper". Bad snipers should not be used as evidence of the role not being valuable. In DUST, bad snipers prove that the Sniper Rifle is useless in exactly the same way blind people prove that cloaked players can't be seen at all by anyone. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4916
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Posted - 2014.04.05 10:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:Garrett, I've played with Gem Cutter (against) and this game is not the same game we were all playing two years ago. Snipers used to be a team asset they are no longer. You've been away for a long time and things have changed. Everything that I said is 100% correct in this current build and has been correct for the last few builds.
Lets look at what you said:
Quote:How many of the PC teams which were successful were using snipers prior to the collapse of PC?
PRIOR TO THE COLLAPSE OF PC.
Back then, Gem Cutter was a good sniper and not the only one whose team was successful using a sniper.
And no, I HAVEN'T been "away", long time or not. I haven't been active on the forums all the time, but I've missed 2 builds since I started playing DUST in closed beta, neither of which was recent. I've seen skilled snipers as recently as YESTERDAY using the exact tactics I described in the post I linked. I saw them in 1.6 and 1.7 as well.
Quote:Yes, forge guns are better at stopping hackers on a point since they one shot kill everyone, sniper rifles do not, and they have the added bonus of being able to take out tanks, something sniper rifles cannot do in game. The range limits on forges don't mean much since the maps are pretty small. Forgers can easily move between overwatch points with a DS. Snipers can't chase people off points anymore. I can hack faster than you can kill me in almost every instance. If I can't get the hack alone (you'd have to be using a thales) then half of my squad hacking together can. Also if you are sniping from more than forge gun range you are probably in the redline hiding like a wuss which limits your effective targets and thus your effectiveness. (red line sniping is another thing that needs changing but that is a topic for another day).
So you're saying that Sniper Rifles aren't effective because a lone sniper with no backup can't take out half the enemy team at once while they hack. If a team knows there's a Forge Gun trying to defend a point, they can send one player in to get shot while hacking, then 2 more immediately after, and hack the point before a second shot can be fired. If they know a good sniper is covering the point, they have to go out and FIND the sniper because if they don't they can potentially all be wiped out without anyone REACHING the point to begin a hack.
Yep, that argument is totally valid. 
Quote:I am sorry but I am not referring to stationary snipers. I am referring to all snipers. In the last few builds snipers, even good ones, are not team assets. They are annoyances that cannot stop the enemy from doing a single thing and take up valuable space on a team's roster. Every single role that a sniper can perform can be done better by another style of player. The worst part is that the sniper isn't even a decent generalist at this point. Snipers are specialists who suck at their specialty. Before you start your tears again I suggest you get into some serious competetive games and see how many snipers there are. Try using one in a competetive game and see how little effect you have on the match's outcome.
You know, I would try sniping, but I'd rather let the friends I have who are actually GOOD at sniping do that and cover my back while I get up close and personal with my opponents. When I've decided to use my own Sniper Rifle, which happened as recently as mid-1.7, I've been able to perform adequately by my own standards for myself, but I'm certainly not skilled enough to be the kind of asset I know a good sniper can be.
Quote:I am asking CCP to remove the sniper rifle not because I hate the play style but because it does nothing to support team play in or even team success in its current form. This is really just my way of calling for a reinvention of the weapon and its role. I am doing so in an extreme way to elicit a reaction that is less extreme (think Earth First being established to make Greenpeace look like respectable moderates). I'm saying something extreme to make reasonable moderate responses seem more reasonable and thus more likely to be implemented.
And if you were RIGHT, you would have a valid point. But you're not. |
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