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Skihids
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Posted - 2014.03.31 14:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
BrotherofHavok wrote:Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote:So far, I like the new changes. I really have to plan routes and make sure I communicate to optimize survival. There is nothing better than getting four swarms and a forge fired at you and knowing that your death is a true possibility. I do like the AV ADS alliance. ATM, but the price of an ADS is still a bit high. Can we get 175,000 isk hulls? Something would be nice. Maybe 150,000 perhaps? Here's what I hate about what you said. After the vehicles are nerfed you want cheaper tanks. Then when they become cheaper everyone is using them and they require another nerf and then you want them cheaper and cheaper... it becomes an endless cycle. PUT THE TANKS BACK! Remove the hardener nerf, allow tanks to run triple stacked armor reps, allow the tanks to pack a major punch against other tanks and vehicles, but RAISE THE PRICE! CCP is worried about high SP tankers running the field. Well you know what? Let them. If they have the skills to keep their tanks alive then let them do it. But I'm reminded of (what was it?) 1.6 or 1.5 with the enforcer tanks. Hardly anyone pulled them out because they COST too much to lose. Do the same here! Why is a basic tank cheaper and more effective than Assault Dropships? Yeah, the dropships can move faster and try to duck behind cover but I've seen more than 1 overconfident pilot go down. It's very simple. You want a cheap MLT tank? Fine, remove all but one of the slots. Sica gets a high, and Soma gets a low and leave the price tag where it is. You want a Maddie that can triple stack armor reps? Fine, make the cost of the tank 350K or more, and I know people are going to complain about the cost of the tank, well you know what? It's a F***ING TANK! It should cost more than my dropsuit, than my dropship, than my LAV. Because it's going to be able to take 3-5 times the damage! But make it costly to lose. I want to see tankers get mad at losing their ONE tank that they won't pull one out for the next 5-10 matches! This is what needs to happen!
It won't work. You can't balance on ISK. All you would do is create an elite few that could stomp with impunity.
The PC ISK farmers could still spam as many as they wanted.
As long as vehicles share the same role (infantry slaughter) as infantry, they have to be balanced 1v1 with a dropsuit. CCP is almost there now, and has but to kill stacked reppers to complete the job. Then they can reduce the price to equal the dropsuit and we will have true AV/V tiericide. |
Skihids
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Posted - 2014.04.01 17:58:00 -
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BrotherofHavok wrote:Skihids wrote:
It won't work. You can't balance on ISK. All you would do is create an elite few that could stomp with impunity.
The PC ISK farmers could still spam as many as they wanted.
As long as vehicles share the same role (infantry slaughter) as infantry, they have to be balanced 1v1 with a dropsuit. CCP is almost there now, and has but to kill stacked reppers to complete the job. Then they can reduce the price to equal the dropsuit and we will have true AV/V tiericide.
(GASP) WHAT?!!!??? WHAT?! 1v1 with infantry? Then what's the point of tanks? Lower the cost to dropsuit cost? Then everyone would go tanks. Let's face it, tanks are large targets that move faster than most infantry. They have room for 3 gunners and fill specific roles. Do I agree that tanks are suppose to be good against infantry? No, not the large turrets anyway. Should the large turrets be only good against vehicles? Probably not, no matter what a large rail shot should take out any standing infantry. Should CCP make it harder for them to hit? Sure, but you cannot say that tanks should be equal to usefulness and cost of infantry. If that were the case then CCP should have just yanked all vehicles when they removed logi LAVS, logi dropships and enforcer HAVs. true tiericide? are you kidding? As far as the balance isk issue, yes, there will always be elites that have the isk to spend but you know what, if they keep wasting their tanks that cost a mil isk or more, then every match I will sit there and take it from them. As far as those with tons of PC districts, CCP has gone a long way of knocking them down a peg or two with the removal of district locking. Now, corps like Nyain San have lost more than half of their districts and will probably continue to do so until their fairly small corp gets to a reasonable size that they can defend and hold. They will still of PC districts though until a stronger corp comes along and if you hate that any corp besides your own has a district than get over it, beef up your corp, take a district or just plain go to a different corp that already has a district.
I didn't say I was in favor, merely that CCP has limited balance options and that they picked one to implement.
The choices are:
Require a multi-player crew
Seperate heavy vehicles from infantry so they don't compete directly
Place a very low artificial limit on deployment
Nerf heavy vehicles to be no different than a suit
A tank as you and I think of it is far better than one infantry suit. It has more eHP, hits harder, and drives faster. That means it is worth a multiple of a suit, making it a force multiplier when driven by one player. The low player count means a couple of these will unbalance the match.
You can eliminate the multiplier by adding crew requirements. If the vehicle will be worth three suits it takes three suits to run.
Another way to deal with the problem is to side step it. Remove the large turret's AI capability and put more in the game for the rail turret to destroy. We are getting out idea of what a tank is from modern day, so let's take thier mission from modern day as well. No army today uses its main battle tank's main gun to kill infantry 1v1. They use them to blow up the big stuff. They breach walls, knock down bridges and towers, and destroy bunkers.
You can also cut down the size of the imbalance by limiting the number deployed. CCP did that in Ambush.
Failing any of the previous you can simply swing the nerf bat until the vehicle no longer has an eHP or effective movement advantage such that it can be killed by a lone merc as easily as the vehicle can kill the merc. This is the least desirable method because it destroys the whole notion of what the vehicle is, but it is by far the easiest and fastest to implement. This is the path that CCP has chosen. |
Skihids
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Posted - 2014.04.02 03:43:00 -
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CLONE117 wrote:( Skihids: The choices are:
Require a multi-player crew
Seperate heavy vehicles from infantry so they don't compete directly
Place a very low artificial limit on deployment
Nerf heavy vehicles to be no different than a suit)
i guess the same could be said for proto suits and modules in pub matches.. since tank versus tank is alot more balanced than drop suit vs drop suit.
if it takes 2 players too kill a single player in a proto suit. then shouldnt the proto suit require 2 players to use it?.
by this logic gameplay is ridiculously stupid in general. but it might tone down stomp matches.. potentially.
what shall our newberries due?. by all rights and respect to them. their the ones that deserve to cry and whine all they want. they get farmed for kills and warpoints by proto scrubs without a second thought. the new berries invented the murder taxi. they discovered a way to counter a proto suit. and that counter was bitched about endlessly then abused badly later on by the actual scrubs till its removal. come 1.7. our mlt newberries discovered tanks to be the best counter to proto stompers. and all the bitching here is perfect proof of it. and those few paths are dead wrong in general. there are many more paths than u think. no1 seems to have learned them or figured them out by now. except maybe for the ignored few.
It doesn't take two MLT players to take out a proto suit. A MLT scout can do it in many ways, shotgun, RE, etc. Weapons are powerful enough that TTK is short enough to get a kill. Still, there are those who advocate further tiericide. |
Skihids
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Posted - 2014.04.02 17:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Skihids wrote:CLONE117 wrote:( Skihids: The choices are:
Require a multi-player crew
Seperate heavy vehicles from infantry so they don't compete directly
Place a very low artificial limit on deployment
Nerf heavy vehicles to be no different than a suit)
i guess the same could be said for proto suits and modules in pub matches.. since tank versus tank is alot more balanced than drop suit vs drop suit.
if it takes 2 players too kill a single player in a proto suit. then shouldnt the proto suit require 2 players to use it?.
by this logic gameplay is ridiculously stupid in general. but it might tone down stomp matches.. potentially.
what shall our newberries due?. by all rights and respect to them. their the ones that deserve to cry and whine all they want. they get farmed for kills and warpoints by proto scrubs without a second thought. the new berries invented the murder taxi. they discovered a way to counter a proto suit. and that counter was bitched about endlessly then abused badly later on by the actual scrubs till its removal. come 1.7. our mlt newberries discovered tanks to be the best counter to proto stompers. and all the bitching here is perfect proof of it. and those few paths are dead wrong in general. there are many more paths than u think. no1 seems to have learned them or figured them out by now. except maybe for the ignored few. It doesn't take two MLT players to take out a proto suit. A MLT scout can do it in many ways, shotgun, RE, etc. Weapons are powerful enough that TTK is short enough to get a kill. Still, there are those who advocate further tiericide. Dude tanks are an example of Tiericide done wrong...... be careful how you throw that word around.
Oh, I completely agree with you. CCP borked up vehicles big time. I would have chosen any other balance tactic than the one they picked and I would have teired vehicle modules in a different way. Certainly the TTK is far to short for the current module differences to kick in. Vehicle vs. vehicle fights are all about who saw who first and a zero SP 70k ISK Sica can take out any other vehicle. Vehicle vs. Infantry is approaching 1v1 so vehicles won't offer any force multiplication. It's a **** poor way of balancing, but it's the one CCP is implementing. The only thing left is to reduce vehicle costs to reflect the fact that they are no longer any better than a suit. You can't expect pilots to shell out proto plus prices for equipment they will lose multiple times per match.
All that is why I stopped playing. Flying the ADS is now a complete act of masochism and fiscal irresponsibility. It's simply no fun anymore. CCP doesn't seem to get vehicles. |
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